FD Requirements

[BdBHunts]

I am considering running my dogs in FD next year, what do they need to do in the test and what is required to achieve the FD title?

[Sharon]

FD is not a title in trials. There are no titles in trials. You either place or you don't. It is a CKC test title. I haven't participated in it for a long time so i wouldn't want to say what the standards might be now. You can go to the CKC website and order the Pointing Breed Hunt test Booklet .

[Big Bird]

They need to point.....and thats it...

They do a little circuit like in NA, first 5-7 minutes in a field with no birds , this is to let the dog run out, next is to see the dog seach , and if the dog is working out front on objectives. Then it needs to find a bird and point. The dog does not need to be steady to anytning, but is expect to retreive the bird.

For $35.00 or what ever the entry fee it is a good training day, and you need to pass this to do FDX.

[AlbertaVizsla]

An FD dog has to show desire to hunt and hit objectives where birds are likely. The dog must find a bird and be steady to to the flush but not the shot. The dog must retrieve the shot bird to hand (the handler may not move their feet once they've sent their dog for the retrieve).

You do not need to pass FD to do FDX

[seadog]

BdB ; You should have no problems , you are UT trained ? Archie was high score on the 2 legs that I ran him in (should of done the 3 rd , oh well ) .

[BdBHunts]

seadog how are you? You should come by if you are in the area. It may be a little too cold to be sitting outside for some pops like when you were here last.:eek: I was thinking more for my pup, she is a year old the end of March.

[AlbertaVizsla]

Are you thinking FDJ then for your pup?

For FDJ they have to find a bird and they have to point convincingly but don't have to be steady and can chase the bird after they've pointed.

I planted birds at a test last spring and got to watch every FDJ dog run - it was an interesting experience.

[BdBHunts]

No FD. She already ran NA, see my post about Montreal NAVHDA Chapter.

[AlbertaVizsla]

No FD. She already ran NA, see my post about Montreal NAVHDA Chapter.

NA ability won't get you an FD! The field portion of FDJ is pretty equalivent to NA. Flash points, birds not shot etc.

In the FD test the Dog MUST be steady to the flush, and must retrieve to hand.

[BdBHunts]

NA ability won't get you an FD! The field portion of FDJ is pretty equalivent to NA.

I realize that and that is why I don't want to do FDJ.


In the FD test the Dog MUST be steady to the flush, and must retrieve to hand.

Please see post Pups first Duck Retrieve.

[AlbertaVizsla]

Do I have to read every thread on this board before I can answer posts?

You asked what was required and "Big Bird" gave you incorrect information.

A year old is very young for an FD so I assumed that you were talking about an FDJ dog. Only a hanful of dogs that young have gotten their FD's so it was a fair assumption.

[BdBHunts]

I know of one GSP pup from a friends litter that got it at 6 months old. It was before it even ran NA.

And thank you for your responses.

[AlbertaVizsla]

Did he stay steady to flush and retrieving once he got older? I've heard that some dogs will be steady when their young but as they get older and more confidant their drive and enthusiasm make them want to chase.

What do you think is too young an age to break a dog? Do you believe in teaching a forced retrieve? Do you plan on doing NAVHDA UT or FDX one day with this dog?

[Sharon]

That's a good point Alberta V.

I had a female that broke herself at 10 months - steady to flush and shot. No intervention from me. They used to tease me at the trials that I was putting velcro on her tail. LOL

However at some point, she still needed to go through the training steps like any dog .

Similar to the force fetch theory. Some dogs are natural retrievers. But you want them to retrieve whe asked..

[Vindalbakken]

I too don't understand the assumption of previous knowledge from other posts being applicable to this one.

If you want to do FD the dog must hunt, point staunchly, be steady till shot, and retrieve to hand on command. There is no averaging of scores, so the dog must perform all functions on all bird encounters. As to the standard of quality, length of test, and size/type of field you will run in I have no idea what they do in the East, I can only speak to what you would encounter if running here in Alberta (where all the good dogs hang out).

[Vindalbakken]

We must all have one like that. I currently have 6 year old that was naturally broke. Steady at a year and a half old on wild birds. As a result she was never seriously whoa broke and had little work done with her with training birds. This fall she decided she didn't want to be staunch anymore, let alone broke. I had to quit hunting her for the last two weeks as I had no mechanism in place to convince her of the error of her ways. I am feeling quite certain that the remedial training work required now will surpass anything I may have had to do 4 years ago if I had payed attention and did it the right way.

[AlbertaVizsla]

I am of a mind that because I would like to do FDX, NAVHDA UT and Field Trials that I don't want to run my dog in FD too soon. I'd rather have him pretty much broke to wing and shot and darn near FDX performance before I run the FD. I imagine he coulda passed it last fall - but I'm waiting until spring with the hope that another winter in maturity and training will make a large amount of difference.

FD still let's them get away with things that you don't want for higher level manners.

[Vindalbakken]

You have been schooled with sound advice IMO.

[BdBHunts]

Did he stay steady to flush and retrieving once he got older? I've heard that some dogs will be steady when their young but as they get older and more confidant their drive and enthusiasm make them want to chase.

case may know better than I because her friend Ugo trained the dog and she may have seen him. I only know that the FD was completed before the NA test which I watched.


What do you think is too young an age to break a dog? Do you believe in teaching a forced retrieve? Do you plan on doing NAVHDA UT or FDX one day with this dog?

It is at what age can the dog handle it. Some at a younger age others older. Yes I believe in Force Fetch, I just haven't done it but will. My male will retrieve anything but geese, he will hunt dead on them. To be fair I haven't really tried him on a field hunt, only when the geese were brought down in a duck marsh. I will do UT again with my male and and probably with the female when she is older. I may do FD and FDX, that is why I was inquiring about it.


I am of a mind that because I would like to do FDX, NAVHDA UT and Field Trials that I don't want to run my dog in FD too soon. I'd rather have him pretty much broke to wing and shot and darn near FDX performance before I run the FD.

I had a UT Prize 1 shorthair that I got from afriend of mine and he trained her the way he was shown. No hunting until she was completely broke.

[seadog]

BdB , your a man after my own heart . Maybe some high test instead to ward off the cold . We should be having a meeting sometime soon , any news .

[Sharon]

"Case may know better than I because her friend Ugo trained the dog and she may have seen him. I only know that the FD was completed before the NA test which I watched." quote BB


As far as I know that GPS never looked back.

Ugo doesn't make decisions about "breaking" a dog based on its' age but on it preparedness.

[be2man]

Back when I was running my Britt in CKC tests 8-10yrs ago, Ugo had 2 Brittany littermates, Callie and Melanie, that both had there FDX titles at under a year of age. Something to be said about taking advantage of that cooperative age before teenagerhood.

When I ran in FD I don't believe the dog had to be steady to flush. They had to allow you to move ahead and flush the bird without breaking, but once the bird was up, chasing was not a fault. Also you were allowed to take one BIG step towards the dog if necessary to accept/recover the bird on the retrieve. May be a difference in judges interpretation of the standard or have the rules changed?


Was considering running my NAVHDA registered PP in CKC tests. He's not CKC registered. Am I correct in understanding that he can be CKC "listed" to run in CKC test, but may not be awarded a CKC title? Or is he even allowed to run? My wife was looking into doing some CKC tracking training/testing with him and got the impression he wouldn't be allowed to participate without CKC registration.

[seadog]

I believe that CKC does not reconize NAVHDA papers . You would have to get AKC papers .

[BdBHunts]

It is the same with a Bourbonnais. On the PDJ site there is a thread about a guy running his Bourbonnais in a NSTRA trial and the breed not being recognized, just like a PP.

[Sharon]

Anyone serious about participating in CKC field events needs to get the booklet "Pointing Breed Field Test Rules and Regulations", from the CKC.

See net address in Maverick's post in next post

[Maverick]

I am pretty sure there is an newer version then that 05 version case. I am looking for mine and will let you know for sure.

Mav......

[Maverick]

Found it on their site

http://www.ckc.ca/en/Portals/0/Rule-Books/313-06-05%20Field%20Dog.pdf

Mav......

[seadog]

Be2man ; I gave you some wrong info , I forgot that the AKC does not recognize PP . :boo:

[Jixer]

Running FD is definately a good day (or 3) out with your dog. You get to run your dog on birds. You get a second opinion of your dogs performance, and you get to see a multitude of other dogs working in the field. Who could ask for a better day?
If you qualify for a blue ribbon, that is just a bonus.:nice work:

[RyanGSP]

Also you were allowed to take one BIG step towards the dog if necessary to accept/recover the bird on the retrieve.

This is incorrect and will result in an automatic failure. The one of my buddies almost got failed because he was in a rose bush and went to take a step out to get the bird without the approval of a judge..

A step is only allowed if the judge says its ok to do so. You may not just take a step at your own leisure.

Yes the dog is required to stay solid one point has been established and may not move unless the bird does. A bird that has moved could mean the bird has ran or it has flown either way your dog may move after that. The dog will also be deducted if it flags. Here in AB I have seen some pretty crappy calls on a flag. I seen 1 dog that was deducted because the dog was so intense its tail quivered maybe 1/4 or 1/2". The judge called it flagging and it was his right to do so.

The dog also doesn't have to retrieve to hand as long as you can get it but it will not receive full marks. It will also be penalized for dropping a bird, chewing a bird, or mouthing a bird.

[RyanGSP]

I would honestly get your dog able and ready to pass an FDX test. When you walk onto the field you are confident in your dog abilities and you wont be scolding him or hacking on him. This is what I did with my dog and it landed my a 97/100. I just walked and allowed my dog to do his thing. Yes there was times I wanted to yell at him but I kept my mouth shut and kept walking.

Also dont be afriad to position your gunners. I had a really bad point on one of my runs we were walking and the dog slammed point with the bird between him and myself (gallery, judges and gunners). I made a crappy call and put the bird over his head thinking it would fly up high...wrong. He broke and took 2 steps not a fail but I wasnt impressed. I could have walked outta there alot happier had I said to the judge I would like to flush the bird towards where the gallery and yourself is standing would it be possible to move these people.

If this is your first run go talk to the judge (usually they have 2 and alternate runs). Introduce yourself and tell him this si your first FD test so please feel free to let me know what I am doing wrong and tell me what directions we are taking. They will be happy to assist you.

[Sharon]

Excellent advice!

[Vindalbakken]

This is incorrect and will result in an automatic failure. The one of my buddies almost got failed because he was in a rose bush and went to take a step out to get the bird without the approval of a judge..

A step is only allowed if the judge says its ok to do so. You may not just take a step at your own leisure.

Yes the dog is required to stay solid one point has been established and may not move unless the bird does. A bird that has moved could mean the bird has ran or it has flown either way your dog may move after that. The dog will also be deducted if it flags. Here in AB I have seen some pretty crappy calls on a flag. I seen 1 dog that was deducted because the dog was so intense its tail quivered maybe 1/4 or 1/2". The judge called it flagging and it was his right to do so.

The dog also doesn't have to retrieve to hand as long as you can get it but it will not receive full marks. It will also be penalized for dropping a bird, chewing a bird, or mouthing a bird.

I think there is some misunderstanding here, and some interpretation of the rules occurring. The rules state that the handler must remain at the point where the retrieve was initiated unless given permission by the judge to move. This is the rule that was involved in the case where Ryan's buddy found himself in the rose bush when the retrieve was initiated and the judge ruled he must remain standing there to accept the retrieve (I thought the story was his dog did fail because it refused to enter the thicket to bring him the bird).

Then there is the rule that says for full marks a dog must retrieve tenderly to hand. In order for the dog to retrieve "to hand" there must be no movement of the handler to the dog, the dog must come to the handler and present the bird. This is the standard required for full marks to be earned, along with the behavior of the dog on its way out, at the bird, and on its way back in.

In addition to this is the rule which states that a dog will receive a passing mark if it retrieves to "within hand range". This is where the basketball rule which be2man references (keep one foot anchored). If you can reach the bird from the place on which you are standing (the place from which the retrieve was initiated) then you will get a minimum passing score.

Dropping and mouthing birds detract from the overall score, but chewing is an outright failure.

When I am judging I have a vision of what the perfect retrieve looks like (10) and I know what a minimum acceptable retrieve looks like (5). All other retrieves between those two boundaries are scored (6 to 9) depending on the degree of variance from the vision.

As to the flagging comment, motion of the tail is flagging. Intense dogs are rigid.

[Vindalbakken]

Excellent advice!

x2 on that. Good advice Ryan.

[Vindalbakken]

When I ran in FD I don't believe the dog had to be steady to flush. They had to allow you to move ahead and flush the bird without breaking, but once the bird was up, chasing was not a fault.

This is a bit misleading. In order for an FD dog to score a 20 on pointing he must remain steady to the shot. Once the shot is taken the dog may break, but any movement prior to the shot will result in a score that is reduced from there. The minimum requirement for the dog to obtain a passing score is that the dog be steady to flush. Any movement of the dog prior to the bird flushing will result in an automatic failing score of an FD dog. Style and intensity are of no consideration when determining if a dog should pass or not pass, they only come into play in determining how much above a simple passing score a dog should obtain (or how far below a failing score the dog will be pegged). To get a 20 the dog will be stylish, intense, and steady to shot. To get a 10 the dog will remain in one place till the bird flushes. All variants score somewhere in between.

[be2man]

I guess I was playing "devils advocate" to some degree with some of the above statements. I wholeheartedly agree your dog should be ready to participate and trained to the point of being able to perform optimally in a FD test. On the other hand I have also seen dogs that were barely under control, and not trained to the expected standard, sometimes handled by people who train dogs for others for $:yikes:, recieve passing scores and ultimatley titles because things happened to go okay on a given day, not because the dog was trained or had the ability to put in a top end performance.
My personal opinion, from my own experiences is that I wouldn't put as much value on a F.D. in a pedigree if I was looking for a dog as I would an FDX, FT Ch, Am FT Ch, or NAVHDA Utility or even NA

[Sharon]

or a CH or Dog of the Year ( AFTCA)

[RyanGSP]

I think to some degree I would definatly want to talk to somone about it. I know a few people with FD dogs that could easily be an FDX dog they just dont want to have a fully broke dog for their own reasons.

But your right I look for the higher end finished titles. Even with the Natural Ability the only way I consider that is when it is followed by a UT title. I look for prize 1's and 2's and try to find out why the dog got a 3 but I am not to keen on them.

[cdnvizsla]

FD is a prerequisite to FDX.
If a dog does not achieve an FD title they are not elligible to compete in FDX and can be stripped of the title should they obtain it.
Seems pretty stupid to me but it is the CKC's rule, it's written right there in the book.

FDJ is not a prerequisite to FD however.

Just seems like the rule is a cash grab.

Mind you I have been braced in FDX with numerous dogs that could not pass FD, I think the owners of those dogs should have to pay my entry fees when they show up with a dog that does not honor, steals points, steals retrieves etc.

Testing isnt an exact science dogs that are ready to pass sometimes don't. BUT if you show up with a dog that is not able to pass on training day what miracle do you think has transpired on the drive to the test that is going to allow you to pass??? All you are doing is screwing your bracemate's chances.

[jdbritt01]

Gotta jump in on this one. If FD was not a prerequisite for FDX it would be a cash grab. Everyone who thought they had a good dog could enter. At least this way there is a level of competance that must be proven 3 times under at least 2 different judges. FDJ,I believe should also be a prerequisite for FD for the same reasons. To qualify for FDX a dog should be able to handle another dog stealing point, breaking and anything else that happens. There are dogs running FDX that on that day could not pass FD, but they have obtained an FD title (might have taken them 3 years of testing to get 3 passes). We have both seen dogs that we know are not ready for a test have a great day and pass. In some testing programs that is enough to obtain a title. We have also seen and run dogs that we both knew should blow the test away and watched them blow up, some failing with very high scores and entertaining the judges and the gallery with some spectacular dog work. I guess the challenge is what keeps us both coming back. Hope to see you at some of the spring tests.

[cdnvizsla]

I will be at Vandermeer's gunning for the VSO on May 31, June 1, I will likely run the pup through a couple of legs, as I will be taking her to PA the following weekend to run.

[RyanGSP]

IF FDJ was a prerequisit for FD I know I wouldnt run my dog in the CKC field tests. I am not a big fan of the FDJ course although some really like it. If the CKC made it so we had to pass FDJ before moving onto FD I would quit testing with the CKC and test with the AKC. Go for 7 legs of MH right off the bat and skip SH and JH.

This is how I personally would like to see the CKC field tests done if you want to skip JH its 5 legs of SH and if you want to skip SH its 7 legs of MH or 5 legs of MH if you have a JH already.