Intro to Birds

[Junior]

After alot of research I finally have decided to purchase a GSP puppy that will be coming home at the end of March. This will be my first pointer puppy that I will be training. I have only trained labs in the past as a puppy. I do own a 9.5 year old Vizsla that was a finished dog when I got her. I am trying to educate myself and refresh my memory on training a puppy. I have purchased a few DVD's on how to train a pointing dog and I am curious how soon do you guys put the dog on pigeons or quail? The video's I have watched all show intro to birds after the dog has been properly introduced to the gun. I have always been a firm believer that early bird work at 4 or 5 months old before intro to the gun is a positive thing at least for flushing dogs.
I was going to see how the pup matures and when it starts pointing a wing on a string before introducing it to a pigeon. I was thinking around the 4 to 5 month old age and then shortly after that proper intro to the gun. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Vindalbakken]

The easiest way to introduce the gun is to fire a blank gun while the young dog is consumed with the fire of the chase on a bird that has just been flushed for it. That wouldn't fit with what you are describing in your videos.

[Junior]

I will use that method when introducing to the gun. So are you saying that you introduce live birds only when its time to do the intro to the gun and after? I was also hoping to get the pup on some wild grouse at my farm before the intro to the gun to get the dog birdy. I want to try and use wild birds as much as possible in the 2008 hunting season. My plans are to bring him with me out west to Saskatchewan in September where he will be 8 months old to get as much expose to wild birds as possible. I also understand that he is a pup and that these sessions need to be short, no pressure but fun.

[Vindalbakken]

A bird dog is never too young to see birds. Just remember that everytime you do something with a dog or the dog does something on it's own it is learning something. Be sure you understand what you are teaching your dog with each thing that you do.

[dilly]

I let my GWP "play" with clipped wing pigeons at 11 weeks. i think it depends on how timid the dog is really, but Kaiser learned very early that birds were the funnest thing in the world.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p07a20815cc827d378ba342ae62d13ef0/e98d027b.jpg

[Junior]

Thank-You for the feedback.

[RyanGSP]

I had my GSP on pheasants and partridge at 12 weeks. He was raided on wild birds and never had a problem.

If you are looking for a good DVD you may want to look at Perfect Start and Perfect Finish. Excellent training DVD's but one of the most popular trainers in the states.

[Sharon]

At 12 weeks I'm putting out pigeons. They MUST be flight - conditioned good flying birds . I don't want the dog to catch them. The dog learns why we are out there. He will break himself. Let him chase and SAY NOTHING. He will eventually ( in his own time, however long that may be) , start to creep on them. Then he will start to flash point. You are still SAYING NOTHING.Then he will hold long enough to let you get in front and flush the bird. Now and only now is he ready for some stroking, handling from you while someone else flushes. (Never touch his head when he is on point.) My newest dog had broke herself at 10 months. All I provided was the environment and the car ride.

If a handler can restrain themselves and let the dog learn on his own, the more likely the dog will hold that point when you are 300 yards back in the bush. Try to keep yourself out of the equation as much as possible. It's about the bird and the dog.

What you want to teach in the field young ,is coming when called, turning when asked and whoaing on command in the absence of birds. Not a common method but has worked well for many people for many years.

[RyanGSP]

whoaing on command in the absence of birds.

Very important. Too much do I see a dog that will point and start to creep if not whoad only to bust the bird. What if the dog goes around the corner or over the hill and points and flushes the bird.

Teach whoa and use it away from birds. If the dog creeps pick it up and put it back into place without saying a thing.

[Parabuteo]

I find that quail are fine for table work but I strongly recommend being cautious if you use them in the field, I prefer to use pigeons, chuckers and pheasants. I find quail do not fly well and you risk teaching your dog to chase/catch them. It can be avoided by paying a few bucks more but save you in the long run. Make sure that you have a steady stop command.

[Sharon]

Very important. Too much do I see a dog that will point and start to creep if not whoad only to bust the bird. What if the dog goes around the corner or over the hill and points and flushes the bird.

Teach whoa and use it away from birds. If the dog creeps pick it up and put it back into place without saying a thing.

Sorry I must disagree. Although that is the common belief.
If a dog points , breaks ( creeps and flushes ) near you or far away then he hasn't learned that such behaviour will cause the bird to fly away. If he's learned his lessons the distance away doesn't matter. In trials, dogs stand for 30 minutes , 2 miles away. They were allowed to learn their lessons.

He hasn't learned this because his lessons were aborted by the handler interferring. The dog has to be allowed to bust birds until he learns that busting is not getting him what he wants. If done properly these lessons should be learned by twelve - eighteen months.

Does lifting him up and putting him back in position work? Does shouting whoa 20 times from a distance work? Does buzzing with the e-collar so he starts blinking birds cause he thinks the hurt is coming from them work?

I learned my methods from an excellent pro trainer who puts out super dogs. When he gets say a 3 year old who is not broke, he goes back to step one. Let that dog bust birds until he learns it's not working for him.Some never learn and will only be "broke " when the handler is breathing down their neck. It is normal for a well bred pup ( Who has been properly prepared.)to be broke in 12-18 months.

[Big Bird]

A dog that has trained itself is better off than the dog that has been whoa trained to the smell of a bird.

Good flying birds, (homers are great) which can be slightly dizzied placed in objectives can catch the pups sense of smell and curiosity will make the pup venture in to the new scent. The good flying bird will escape with the presence of the pup. I suggest a 10-15-check cord as a safety line to ensure the bird is not caught. The pup will slowly acknowledge the smell and begin a cautious walk toward the smell. The sequence will lengthen, to where the dog establishes a point. You have done nothing but exposure, and made sure the bird is not caught. Development through this sequence depends on the dog and its maturity. Sometime you have to be very patient. Please disregard the chap down the street who claimed his dog pointed at 8 weeks. Each dog is different and the one that pointed at eight weeks is no better dog than the one you are working with.


There are some dogs that lack strong desire to point! This can be handler induced. These dogs can be trained using the whoa command method. When the dog has been trained on the whoa command, the dog is brought into a bird and once has had the opportunity to smell is issued the command to whoa. The bird is then flushed. Repetition of this sequence teaches the dog the stop (whoa) when he smells a bird. This sequence makes the dog more reliant on the handlers, sometimes developing false pointing, and being over cautious. Pointing may be not as staunch! ( Retreivers can be taught to point using this method)

A lot of problems are caused by a anxious handler exposing the dog to poor birds. Usually the dog trained to whoa at the smell has the bad luck of chasing poor flying birds and successfully catching them. This is not what you want to happen. A trainer who has commenced to train the dog on whoa issues a command, and the dog is not fully trained in whoa, loses the training in the excitement of the bird contact and breaks for a case. Now we have created two problems. One of the dog casing and catching a bird, and two the dog learning that whoa only counts when there are no birds. There is also a fine line here on building a dogs desire and allowing the chase, and contolling. You want to build both.

In both sequences some trainers have commenced using release type traps for training the dog. They come in manual and electric. There are advantages to both systems. These work to hold the bird until the desired time of release. One should expose the pup to the noise prior to attempting using it with birds. Some dogs are a little sensitive to this noise. The release trap can be activated to release the bird if the dog establishes point and begins to move in, it can be activated if the dog makes game and does not establish point and moves in. In both cases the bird is released in the similar escape pattern of a wild bird if the dog does not handle the bird correctly. Repetition, patience, and building on each training session will pay the trainer back eventually with a solid point. I gradually wean the dog off the release traps to various planted birds. Pups recognize the smell of the bird in the trap and will act different to release trap birds as opposed to planted birds. I also believe they can hear the sound of the bird breathing.

Be patient, work on your yard work commands; whoa, come and mix in bird exposure with the yard work..

I also suggest connecting up with a friend or organization that can assist you with the training. I am with NAVHDA and if you need additional information PM me, or check out their website at www.navhda .org

[Sharon]

Excellent.

P.S. It's important to have a philosophy of training. Read a lot and decide how you think dogs learn. Then instead of picking up "things to do" here and there you will only use ideas that fit into your philosophy.

(I don't use quail until my dogs are staunch as quail are easy to catch. I go from pigeon to chukar to quail.)

PPS I would never have a pup who had a weak desire to point . I would have to see a strong desire before i ever bought that pup.

[Vindalbakken]

PPS I would never have a pup who had a weak desire to point . I would have to see a strong desire before i ever bought that pup.

Spoken like a setter/pointer owner.

[Junior]

Case and Big Bird, I really like this type of training style you have mentioned and it makes alot of sense to use this style. It is a little different of a style than some of the DVD's I have watched and that is what is confusing me because there are a few different training styles out there. I want to make sure I understand your training style and here is a senerio. Let's say in September when the pup is 8 months old and has been properly introduced to gunshot he is still not broke and is chasing pigeons. When I take him hunting on wild grouse and woodcock in September. I should only be shooting birds that he holds points and lets me flush or what about if he creeps on point or flash points and the bird flushes wild? I am also assuming that no pigeons are to be shot also while training if he is not holding point? I would like to get further clarification. Case I have contacted a professional trainer in Niagara Falls that I believe we both know and I was planning on getting his help.

[Junior]

I also forgot to mention another issue. I have a 9.5 year old finished Vizsla and would it help to have the pup watch the Vizsla holding point and shooting pigeons behind her so that the pup will understand what is expected?

[BdBHunts]

You could probably talk to the breeder as well for advice. I'll be hunting my dog with mama next week.

[Sharon]

This is so GREAT to have a real upland conference. I'm thrilled!I'm spending more time here than at my home forum. LOL

I don't want to come across as a know it all. I've been fortunate to have a wonderful mentor! Not everyone is as lucky. What I know I learned from him and I'm only probably touching on a quarter of his method. Yes we are talking about the same person Junior.
He's honest and tells you the truth about your dog.
He gives your money's worth.
He works with you to meet YOUR goals for your dog.
He'll be there for your questions for the rest of your life if you're receptive.
He produces. His method comes from 25 years of seeing how dogs learn.
You can't say that about every trainer.
They are not cheap. That's their livelihood. You'll never regret it. Very smart move.

Question 1:

Pup is not fully broke and you want to take him hunting:

We're all eager to take our new dog hunting.
Pup shouldn't miss the experience but you don't want to undue all your training or create new problems.
This experience is FOR THE PUP, NOT FOR YOU TO SHOOT BIRDS.Those years will come.
If he busts birds, let him chase, say nothing.DON"T SHOOT. He won't catch a timberdoodle! LOL
Have a bell or locator on him.
If he points, approach slowly, stroke, put your arm around his lower belly without touching him. Be ready.
Have a friend flush and shoot.
If the pup breaks ,tighten your grip and lift his hind legs up, he isn't going any where. SAY NOTHING.
Have the shooter bring him the bird.Let him mouth it a bit.
Put the bird away and send your dog on. ( You should have a" send on" command for your dog - I use a tap on the head. Don't use his name. Use something you don't use for any other purpose.)
Make sure your friend knows the rules and sticks to the plan.


Question 2
Don't work your 2 dogs together. I know it's tempting as far as time goes but not a good idea.
It will do more harm than good.
Pup could end up intimidated, a follower etc. etc. etc.Plus what you need to be working on with that pup can only be done alone right now. Distractions can come later. JMHO
Make sure your old dog get some time / exercise but give your best time to the pup. I have 3 dogs so I know it's a problem.
I've been doing something right now to save time that I would regret if I continued. As the snow is deep , we are only going out for exercise/conditioning and field obedience ( turning etc.). I'm taking the 2 year old and her Mom. Already I see the 2 year old reaching out less and looking for her Mom. If I continue doing this, the 2 year old will be looking for her Mom at trials in the Spring. I must take them out seperately even though it's a pain......... when you're working. There are no shortcuts. The famous one is planting the birds when you think the dog isn't looking. What does he learn? The birds are always over the area we already covered. Always go out plant the birds, then go back to the car and get the dog. There are no shortcuts to productive dog training.

Excellent questions.

[Junior]

BDBHunts-The breeder is going to help me with the process and I will definately be talking to him as well. Good luck on the hunt and take care of Mamma!

Case-You are 100% correct that its great having a forum like this with all of the knowledge combined, you get years of help. I wish these forums were around when I had my other dogs to guide me in the right direction. Everyone has been very helpful and I can't thank everyone enough for their feedback. I am really looking forward to this pup and doing things correctly. Yes that means no shooting birds the first season or two whatever it takes for the pup to understand which will pay off in the long run. Saskatchewan will be a great experience for the pup. I am fortunate to hunt with my dad and brother so the experienced dog will always be taken out hunting and it will most likely be her last trip to Saskatechwan since she is getting older. I also have a good friend and my family that will be helping me train the dog. I prefer to hunt one on one with the dog anyways so that will work for me.

[Sharon]

That's great!

Can't resist though: Don't get too many fngers in the pie.

[Vindalbakken]

Excellent advise case. In both posts. Sounds much like a derivation from the Delmar Smith book which is what I started with.

I only hunt a young, unbroke dog with an older experienced one when I want to teach things to the older dog about manners around an unmannerly dog. There is little positive that the young dog can learn from the old one. If the young dog should have the hunt born into him.

[Sharon]

Lol I've never read the book, but maybe he's a long lost relative and we have the same genes. LOL

[Big Bird]

Case and Big Bird, I really like this type of training style you have mentioned and it makes alot of sense to use this style. It is a little different of a style than some of the DVD's I have watched and that is what is confusing me because there are a few different training styles out there. I want to make sure I understand your training style and here is a senerio. Let's say in September when the pup is 8 months old and has been properly introduced to gunshot he is still not broke and is chasing pigeons. When I take him hunting on wild grouse and woodcock in September. I should only be shooting birds that he holds points and lets me flush or what about if he creeps on point or flash points and the bird flushes wild? I am also assuming that no pigeons are to be shot also while training if he is not holding point? I would like to get further clarification. Case I have contacted a professional trainer in Niagara Falls that I believe we both know and I was planning on getting his help.

Junior, You are correct that you should not shoot at any bird your dog has not handled, or pointed correctly. By shooting at this bird you are teaching him that it is an approved process to push out a bird and you endorse it by shooting it. You most like do not have the dog steady to the shot and now he gets a big reward in retrieving the bird.(BESIDE; By not shooting you are leaving more birds for me LOL)

To allow your older Viszla to show the pup how, you a best to forget this thought! I have heard many owners state this, but to me I have yet to see any dog learn from watching. Usually your pup will learn all the bad habits you do not want your pup to learn. This is poor training, and is caused by have the two dog working at the same time and you only be able to handle one. It sometimes comes through lack of time to exercise the two, and I would believe we are all guilty of this practice.

If you have a senior dog that is completely finished, that is steady to flush, shot, fall and retrieves on command to hand and you can trust this dog 99.9% then and only then can you use the senior dog to be with the pup. Most of the time how ever the pup will run with the senior dog, interfering with the senior dogs search, and really not learning any independent search of its own. My suggestion, best work the pup alone.

There is one advantage, and that is if you have a pup with a lower desire, sitting and watching from the bench can build this desire, as he wants to be out there too. It also teaches the dog obedience at a stake. You should have your dog not barking during this type of training.

I see you are in the Newmarket area. There are several good trainers in that area that you should be able to hook up with.

[Junior]

Big Bird-thank-you for the feedback. I should of explained my thought process when I mentioned using my finished Vizsla to teach the pup. I was thinking of keeping the pup on a leash and letting the pup watch my Vizsla point and retrieve a few pigeons thinking he might get the picture of what this game is all about. I agree hunting them together is not going to do anything but fustrate the older dog who is 100% finished. Big Bird, I met you at the sportsman show last year and both you and Robert convinced me on purchasing a GSP. I was the guy looking for a European pointer at that time so I don't know if you remeber me? Will you be at the sportsman show again in March at the Navda booth?

[RyanGSP]

I would try to get out with another starting dog if I were you instead of a finished dog. I find when you run 2 pups together they gain alot of confidence because there is 2 of them. nce they have the confidence in the field generally I then run them single and let them figure it out for themselves. Hardest part is letting them learn or teaching them where the birds are.

For exapmle I am a big pheasant hunter so we hunt alot of thick cover and cattails. I used my setter with 6 seasons through her because the GSP, although showing alot of confidence in the open, wasnt confident enough to really range out in the cattails he wanted to run the edges. 2 days of my setter finding birds in the nasty stuff and now hes a cattail pushing machine.

[Jixer]

For a young pup, playing with a bird is going to develop desire. A dog can be trained to do a lot of things, but a dog that likes it is going to do the best job. Coturnix quail can be good for young pups, not to menacing.

[verno]

Don't do it like this

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=xBXxs4nFx_g

[Sharon]

Thanks Verno.
I really enjoyed the video on the GWP hunt.

[Junior]

I just talked to the breeder and found out that the GSP puppies were born on Monday. 3 Females & 3 Males. I have first pick of the litter and I will be picking a male. I am really excited and can't wait for March!