Can.vs.U.S trials

[Bryan.M]

I came across a post on the RTF recently where a member was inquiring about results from a certain trial.One member stepped up and replied that his dog along with another dozen or so could not line to a 500 yard blind in a 25 mile an hour cross wind.So I was wondering if the tests are tougher down south of the border,and do you see these distances in Canada?

Thanks Bryan.

[LeeW]

A couple of years ago I ran A four hundred and change yard water blind at the LOC trail it was a Am ..Do you know what your dog looks like at 320 yards in the water if not this is what it looks like . did you see it ..

[Retrievers ONLINE]

I have also seen some very long blinds and marks in Canada-400 plus yards. However, generally, I have seen more long blinds and marks in the U.S. (measured over 500 yards!). It's not just about distance though. Generally, their marking tests are more open and therefore less technical but the flyer adds a huge dimension. Perhaps that is why judges often allow bigger hunts. I have found that callbacks are often more generous (given the number of dogs!). 3 day Opens are routine.
While we have some good grounds, many US trials are run on grounds that are more challenging-ponds built just for dog training and extreme terrain in the west.
Just as some Canadian circuits are much harder to win on than elsewhere, some US circuits are not much harder than here in Ontario. However, other circuits are very much harder-not just the tests but the numbers (over 100 per stake) and the competition. On some US circuits at certain times of the year, there is simply no comparison with winning an Open here.

Of course, on any given day, Lady Luck might be on your side. A very good dog will help more often! I've noticed over the years:

"The best dogs are the luckiest" :first:


Dennis

[LeeW]

The best dogs are the luckiest"

Dennis do you realy belive this ?
I would like to think that the best dogs are the best and they make their own luck ...

[Labber]

One thing I've noticed, is that it would pay to have a dog with the experience of marking and hunting a large area that is saturated by fresh scent of dogs and shot flyers. (and the large area of scent and falls, especially if you throw in a little wind) Couple this with the excitement of a go bird flyer and Field trial atmosphere, and you have a different test from what you would see here.

[Vindalbakken]

The best dogs are the luckiest"

Dennis do you realy belive this ?
I would like to think that the best dogs are the best and they make their own luck ...

Isn't that what he said? That is the interpretation I have always had anyway.

You have to be good to get lucky.

[Retrievers ONLINE]

Isn't that what he said? That is the interpretation I have always had anyway.

You have to be good to get lucky.

Yup! That's exactly what I meant! The best dogs make their own luck!

Dennis

[ducksoup]

The best dogs do make their own luck AND you do have to be lucky to be good as well as good enough to be lucky -- in other words to get a good dog you have to be lucky (how many great breedings only throw one or two FCs -- so picking the best one can be a bit of a crapshoot) -- and for a dog to be able to compete well you have to be part lucky and definitely good (both the dog and handler) -- but the better you train a good dog the less luck should play in the overall equation -- now have I confused everybody with this logic???? (just trying to add clarification to the above posts -- pardon my attempt at humour)

[Lpgar]

Mike

There is No comparison possible betweent the US and Canadian game...particularly in minor stakes. Just the Flyer in the US makes the Game much more demanding for Young Dogs....Let alone the Field size(when was there ever a 60 Dog qualifying in Canada)..quality of Dogs .....and judging experiance.

Sure there has been long blinds and retrieves in Canada...but on a consistent basis the US game has evolved into a very very tough challenge to succeed at.

JMHO

Gar

[Labber]

All this having been said should not be a deterent to playing thier game.
Cdns can do very well there, and it's proven every year by a number of Cdn trialers.

[Misty Marsh]

I have not run a big US open so can't really say one way or the other, but after talking to Norm Elder about it this fall he has said that there is no comparison, between a 30-50 dog open here and a 150-200+ dog open down south. The first series is usually a tough test that will cut the fat from the cream to make the numbers more managable, and distance, bird placement and the live flyers adds a new demension to it all. I would think to have a real go down south you would need a dog that has a 50% for better finish rate in Canada, I could be wrong though?

[Pekisko]

I also believe what has happened in Canada (at least out west), is that fewer numbers are not allowing clubs to bring in judges from afar - at least to break even on a trial. The judging pool has gotten small and somewhat "incestuous" in our area. The same judges get asked over and over again and they aren't necessarily the most qualified.

The numbers may be larger south of the border, but from what I have seen very fair and tough tests. You do need a good dog, but you should need a good dog in Canadian trials to succeed as well. I'll open a can of worms here, but I've seen some very shoddy work getting placements.

Sharon

[Bryan.M]

Good posts everyone.I guess I'd be safe in saying that the GOOD dogs south of the border are'nt nessesarily better than the GOOD ones up here,otherwise the Americans would be cleaning up at our trials,which does not appear to be the case.
Bryan.

[Misty Marsh]

I can only speak of the trials I've been at, but the "yanks" are pretty few and far between up here, atleast in Manitoba.

[Lpgar]

As I said in My post....the American game is very different and that is somewhat because of the Flyer. Sure the Good American competitors can be beaten in Canada. But My observation is that the Competitors that come Up to Canada and play on the consistent basis are very very competitive. The Youngloves's record in Ontario is very good for example.

If you want to beat the Americans......judge them by trying to trick them...or make the test somewhat less technically challenging. But...throw a tough one with good bird placement ....then look out!....The will be there at the end with their FC AFC dogs.

I agree with Sharon.....We must be careful of our Game in Canada.... We must test our dogs fully on any weekend and make sure that Superior work is what is getting the colours.

Gar

[Bryan.M]

I agree,the Younglove's are very consistent competitors here in Manitoba also,and always see their names @ the nationals.See'ing Justins Time's Zoe's Nine One One run propted me to purchace my latest pup sired by Quasi.
On the topic of fliers,does anyone know about permits to shoot fliers in Canada?I may have someone that will raise pheasants for me,if he can convince his wife(apparently they are hard to raise)I would like to shoot a flier once a week for the dogs on the long retired gun.That should get them used to watching that money bird.Bryan.

[Lpgar]

As far as I know.....It is unlawful to shoot a hand or mechanically thrown bird in Canada... No permit is available to change this.

Gar

[Bryan.M]

That sucks.About ten years ago,a guy I worked with was in an archery club,and he said they would pay a certain fee for birds,etc.and they would release them and shoot them with thier bows.Maybe it has changed,or maybe he was S%^*** me.I'll try to find out more.

[Misty Marsh]

It is to my knowledge unlawful to shoot a mechanically released/intrapped wild bird, but pen raised birds not out of a mechanical traps are allowed by permit. How else do spaniel/pointer clubs and the master national I attended last year get to do it?

[Lpgar]

I chatted to a Hunt test Judge about how the Hunt test game was shooting flyers.

He told Me....that as long as the bird was put in an open topped box they are considered to have their freedom....making it legal.

I think I would have to see for MySelf the set Up and how it worked.

[Bryan.M]

I chatted to a Hunt test Judge about how the Hunt test game was shooting flyers.

He told Me....that as long as the bird was put in an open topped box they are considered to have their freedom....making it legal.

I think I would have to see for MySelf the set Up and how it worked.

Did he mention if a permit was required?

[3 black dogs]

I am pretty certain flyers in Canada can only be shot in season for that species and when not only on a licenced game farm. I may be wrong

[Misty Marsh]

http://www.gov.mb.ca/conservation/wildlife/legislation/pdf/fieldtrial_appfrm.pdf Like I said how else does a spaniel/pointer trial get to use and shoot live birds if there is not a permit available? My understanding is that they have to be pen raised and not intrapped or released from a mechanical trap.

[flatlands]

The flyer is a big issue in US trials, but remeber that w/o flyer, Canadian judges can set up all 4 birds in a quad however they want: flyers require room for variation in flight, etc.

Distance per se is far less challenging than tough bird placement, terrain, etc. The big issue in the US is simply the number of good dogs running in trials, requiring very tough 1st series, often ridiculous if the field is over 100 dogs. I've seen judges panic & set up 1st series that were simply idiotic & luck really was the major element in succeeding. The US is trying to address this issue of too many dogs & until they do, those really big trials aren't much fun to run.

One other significant issue is that there are many, many very gifted US amateurs who are real students of the game; on the northern & southern circuits we ran, which were VERY competitive, the top ams could give the top pros a run for their money because they were dedicated & knowledgeable-- not afraid to use & learn from pros, but in many cases also able to teach pros!

I think that a talented, well-trained, well-handled Canadian dog will do as well in US trials as US counterparts if it has some exposure to flyers in training. You can do alot to simulate a live flyer station, but unless the dog actually gets flyers sometimes, it's just not the same. But some folks make more of flyers than they need to: there are some flyer-crazy dogs who really are affected, but most well-trained dogs handle them fine.

So there are different elements in the tests of both US & Can trials that are challenging; I love them both, but really enjoy the smaller size field in Canada.

Connie

[Bryan.M]

Like I said how else does a spaniel/pointer trial get to use and shoot live birds if there is not a permit available? My understanding is that they have to be pen raised and not intrapped or released from a mechanical trap.

Now things are looking up:nice work: I'm off to the conservation office tommorow to get the nitty gritty.Trent,can I interest you in some Pheasant on a Glass??

[Misty Marsh]

Trent,can I interest you in some Pheasant on a Glass??No, but some thrown out of a winger, or shot in flight after flushing from a grass inclosure would be fine!

[Davadar]

If you want to beat the Americans......judge them by trying to trick them...or make the test somewhat less technically challenging. But...throw a tough one with good bird placement ....then look out!....The will be there at the end with their FC AFC dogs.

Gar

I think if you want to beat the Americans or any one else you need to train smarter

Dave

[Kevin Hannah]

On the flyer issue, I believe that they cannot be thrown into the air or mechanically launched and shot as a flyer. They need to be flushed from the ground naturaly

[Misty Marsh]

I believe that they cannot be thrown into the air or mechanically launched and shot as a flyer. They need to be flushed from the ground naturaly

That's my understanding also! Regarding the "beating US compeditors" train for the flyer, train hard, smart, and I'm sure it would all work out!

[TK'S]

At the HRC grand a few years ago at Hullett Marsh they used Chuckers they are not a game bird and the MNR said it was ok to plant them and the horse guys use Pheasants and Quail planted out on the fields for the pointers .At most of the pointer trials they don't shoot the birds they use a blank gun after the handler flushes the bird and the dog has to be steady to wing and shoot without the dog retieving the bird.Terry

[Vindalbakken]

It is the Animal Cruelty Act that regulates this. Birds may not be "thrown" for the purpose of shooting in Canada. This is either my hand or mechanical means. Free released birds may be caused to take flight and shot without a problem. This is how pointing and spaniel events operate. There is no "containment" of the birds, they are released free to move where they please.

In Alberta Quail, Chukar, and Pheasant may be released on private property without a permit of any kind. Quail and Chukar may be shot without a permit. A Shooting Ground Permit is required for the shooting of Pheasants out of season without a licence and for the release and shooting of Huns and Turkeys.

Trials and tests of Pointing dogs and Spaniels here use mainly Chukar. If they use Pheasant and wish to shoot them the event must be held on a licenced Shooting Ground.

[ducksoup]

Don't know about now but Spaniel FTs in Canada used live pheasants planted -- brace of dogs was run at same time as at least three guns were out as well -- when one dog flushed pheasant then bird was shot -- dog that flushed would have to be steady to shot and then make retrieve while other dog "honoured" -- I think that was how I remember it (old age makes you forget about ...... where was I?????)

[Misty Marsh]

Ran the national MH on Ontario last fall and they shot live pheasant out of natural traps, ie thick grass that held them from premature flush.