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View Full Version : CKC Retriever Rep responds – finally, and it’s long



HeatherS
01-07-2008, 05:52 PM
I take a few weeks off and $%@&* hits the fan! Between the holidays, a daughter home for Christmas and a week in Cuba, I have been remiss in staying up with this forum. I would like to attempt to address some of the issues that are running rampant. If I’m repeating some of what has been said, I apologize.

As for the process – I am the first to admit it stinks. Retriever Council reps are appointed, not elected, and therefore should not be in a position to arbitrarily make very important decisions. (Whoever suggested that changing the point schedule for the AFTCH was a “housekeeping” issue was obviously mistaken.) I have talked to Elio Furlan of the CKC Shows and Trials Divisions about this on several occasions. His response – all Councils are appointed. This doesn’t make it right, of course, but I ask you – with so many clubs failing to even vote for National judges, would they take the time and make the effort to vote for a CKC Rep?

As for the AFTCH point schedule, it was brought up at the first meeting I attended in 2000. I was appalled that we in that room could make that decision so it was tabled so reps could get feedback from their clubs. At that time I contacted through both email and snail mail every club, judge and competitive person (running an All-Age dog) in my area (Ontario South Central) with a form letter – yes or no and explain. I read them all, put them in two piles and voted accordingly.

For the last Retriever Council meeting, now all done through teleconferencing, I sent every club in my area the agenda template and asked them to send any and all concerns back to me for inclusion in the full agenda. Did I have to agree with all of them? No, but I had to include them. At that time I also contacted every club in Ontario North as they did not have a rep then and I offered to put their concerns on the agenda as well.

I think I got three responses.

I also told all my clubs I would forward the complete agenda to them when I received it so they could peruse it and let me know how they felt about anything and I would respond accordingly.

I know I got two responses.

Note: I used the name and email of all the club’s secretaries as furnished by the CKC. If that was wrong, there’s not much I can do about it. Better make sure your club’s contact info is correct at the CKC. And if your secretary filed it in the circular file, well again, not much I can do.

And, I’ve asked on numerous occasions that the lead time between the agenda completion and the meeting be longer so the reps can get more input. Elio agreed. For the last meeting we had two weeks. Whoop. We have, actually, pushed our meetings back to allow more time for "grassroots" input.

I’m definitely not trying to pat myself on the back, but it strikes me that this is the only way to do the job. If this doesn’t sound like anything you’re used to, well, perhaps you should find out why.

Now, specifics - the exam - is it a bad idea? I would suggest that it is an excellent idea, one that was proposed at my first Council meeting in 2000. (They do it in the US so it must be good…) Nothing happened then but it’s happened now. (Did someone say the RCouncil rep for eastern Ontario was against the idea? Not as I recall.)The issue is not just simply one of rulebook changes. Too many judges by far haven’t cracked a rulebook in years. The new exam will ask them to not only answer but to indicate in what section their answer is based. (Bill K. has an issue with this.) 50 questions - 1 for the right answer, 1 for the right section. Sometimes there are multiple locations; we have tried to be as complete as possible. I have asked that right answers with “wrong” section identification be forwarded to me by the CKC so we can be perfectly complete. All new judges will write it – you should see it by March. The CKC will be determining how existing judges will write it (I've suggested all judges with surnames A to F) but everybody will in the next five years. Any questions? (Do you think we’d decide we need an exam, write one, have phone, email and face-to-face meetings to tweak it then not know how to implement it?)

And if I let the exam “get out” or discussed council decisions or showed drafts to people, it is certainly not because they’re “special”. Retriever council decisions are not made easily or with very little thought, and are certainly not made in a vacuum. In my opinion, the more discussions that go on at tailgates, the better.

And, to echo Peter (thanks for the defense, Peter, but hey…. it was you that got me into this job!!), let’s not forget that, although Ontario has four reps, more than any other province, we are still part of the larger picture and if the west feels differently than “Ontario” on any issue we will be defeated. Democracy in action.

The NRCC - I can’t recall at any time rule changes coming from the NRCC, though I would certainly argue they should. I think it’s an under-utilized resource. How does it happen? Does it go through a rep?

Retriever Council Chair – not a retriever guy, but, as Peter said, it is not necessary to know all our ins and outs to chair a meeting.

Your RCouncil Rep – check the CKC website. http://www.ckc.ca/en/portals/0/pdf/Retriever%20Council.pdf
It’s not your Zone Board of Director, by the way.

My comment to all the bitching and complaining I hear at tailgates is one thing: WRITE IT DOWN. We can call a meeting whenever we want, now that it’s by phone. Getting changes done is based more on (1) when the Board of Directors meet as they must rubberstamp council decisions (and they don’t always, by the way, but having attended BofD meetings I must grudgingly admit they are thorough) and (2) the cost of reprinting the rulebook which means you’ll only see changes every few years.

To sum up - and hey, I have broad shoulders so have at me – the view of the Retriever Council is to help provide a rulebook that has enough clarity that judges can use it to make correct decisions but that will not in any way hog-tie or impede them in doing their job. Does the CKC have faults? You betcha. Does the Rulebook have faults? Yup. And if anybody can figure out what to do about it, let me know.

krakadawn
01-07-2008, 09:39 PM
Heather,

Thanks for the informative update and background information. You certainly have been communicating with folks in your area.
As you and I agreed the process is in need of refinement. Yes CKC reps should be elected and for the reasons as you quoted.
Getting clubs to be involved continues to still be a challenge but we do have some very active and forward thinking clubs here in Ontario and to that end an attempt to keep everyone apprised is worthy.You were correct in that view as was Peter-we need to encourage our clubs to be more involved in the decision making hence keeping the process up front and transparent and with a better development-still a lofty goal.
To have pushed back a decision for two weeks should be the matter of course not the exception-certainly hard for you to do your job in such a short time frame and be representative of folks here in the province (or other provinces as well).
The decision to move to a test is a good one. I think when questions about the 'what' and 'how' get answered hopefully people can be supportive of the 'WHY'.We have all witnessed some wild interpretation or lack therin of current rules that are in existence.
Hopefully yourself and other CKC reps will lobby for a place on the Retriever Council for a NRCC rep as no other club in Canada has elected regional representation and one that meets more than once yearly.The process for submission of rule changes to be considered should be clear and I will see to it that NRCC submissions are shared with reps so that it is clear what has been submitted to best equip you.
Your suggestion that people be prepared to submit rather than 'bitch' is the way we should go-hopefully you and our other CKC reps will carry this concern for refinements to process to upcoming meetings.
Being involved is so crucial to the sound developement of our game and only with a clear/transparent process can people continue to be informed and hopefully assist in a sound decision regardless of who suggested it or where it came from.
I lobby for this change as we may well require sound communication in the future to deal with pending changes that may or may not be conducive to our sport-thanks for your efforts!
JIm

Cedar Ridge
01-11-2008, 10:06 AM
We do have NRCC representation on the Counsel......but as with all organizations that are hobbies for people, the communtication within can sometimes stink....I will echo Heather's remarks ....we are not perfect but we are trying to make a difference.....

Tom Murray
01-12-2008, 02:08 AM
Hi Heather & Bill
As retriever council reps I have a few questions for you. Who is putting together the questions on this judges exam and an even bigger concern who is going to score it? What qualifications does the exam drafter and scorer have? One reason why I ask this question is because we took the AKC exam a couple of years ago so we could judge in the US, we filled in the same answers on each of our exams and low and behold we each got different scores, please explain if you can. Is this what we are going to see here? I don't necessesarily disagree with the idea, just am concerned about how it will be implemented.

The NRCC has over the years applied to CKC (Elio specifically) I know this as I filed the paperwork, to have rule changes and additions made. The JFTR and QFTR as well as AFTCH points were some of the topics discussed with Elio. Which brings up another question, why was the JFTR lowered to 5 points from the original 10 points? and yet QFTR remained at 10 points.

Another question I have is in the new description of an Amateur. I do agree it is past time we had some clarification on this. At any rate my point would be that in the shall I say old rule 11.3.2 there was at the end of the rule a part that says "in the calendar year of the trial or the preceding calendar year" There is under this new rule 11.3.2 no timeline involved. So does this mean that if a person has ever received payment for the training, handling, showing of field trial, hunt test or hunting dogs that he is never to be an amateur during the rest of his/her natural life?? I suggest this should have some sort of time attached to it.

I also have somewhat of an issue on the last paragraph of the new rule change to 15.3.3 planning tests, part b) "Excessive time" is the part I must wonder about. I do agree there are a few people who take forever to line up their dog no matter what it is mark or blind. But does this not leave ourselves somewhat open to the impatient judge who maybe has been annoyed for whatever reason to then be totally unfair to some poor competitor?

As Bill would say inquiring minds want to know.

And yes Bill you are one of the NRCC directors who are on the retriever council, Fred Benjaminson is another, as well as Sue Taylor.

HeatherS
01-15-2008, 01:10 PM
I'm glad Bill and I are here to answer questions and I know Mike Cardinal is lurking too. I suppose the best solution to any Retriever Council question is for the questioner to contact his or her own Rep, especially on issues one feels strongly about. I don't feel I can or should necessarily speak for all member of the council but I can certainly answer a few questions.

As in any large group, it was a smaller committee that was charged with the task of conceiving the field trial exam. People get busy, of course, so full involvement was at times a little sketchy. Nevertheless, two different 50-question exams have been sent to the CKC with proper score sheets.

The scoring of the exam will be done by the CKC - it's a no-brainer as they just have to follow the score sheet. I suppose nothing's perfect, though, as evidenced by your AKC experience so it's probably fair to say mistakes may happen. At the onset, particularly, there may be some problems but I've asked the CKC to forward any questions to me, especially when it comes to questions with correct answers (true or false) but different rulebook sections listed as "proof". Any particularly difficult/questionable/vague responses? I'll enlist the exam sub-committee as a whole to rule on it, if need be.

The JFTR was changed at the request of the eastern member of the council who felt it would better reflect the conditions of Jrs in his part of the country. The rest of the council concurred.

I suppose the issue is not which members of the NRCC at present sit on the RCouncil since I guess we're covered, however that could change. I've suggested to Jim Ling that we attempt to "formally" add a NRCC representative - whether the CKC would allow them to vote is another issue but it would certainly give the NRCC direct and permanent access and, as such, they could submit changes and have a very real say on council decisions, or at least feel "in the loop". It would probably be a little more effective than submitting things through Elio. (JMHO)

Section 11.3.3 remains the same and addresses the time issue:
"A person who does not meet the above qualifications,
and who wishes to attain amateur standing, shall
announce this intention by letter to the Board. If, at
the expiration of a one year period from the date of
the letter, he has refrained from any attempt to derive
any part of his livelihood from the training, handling
or showing of field trial or hunting dogs, he may be
classified as an amateur in good standing."

As for the impatient/unfair (dare I say "unsportsmanlike"?) judge, we run that risk in ALL aspects of judging, not just in assessing a penalty for excessive time. This rule change was aimed at giving judges the ammunition to address those truly excessive people; here's hoping the second judge, FT committees, judges' selection committees and handlers paying good money for entry fees can make an impact on those unfair judges. (How do you legislate against jerks?)

Hope that answers a few things.

Heather