Question about finish percentages

[3 black dogs]

Just looking through the latest online and noticed the dogs from the west had better finish rates than the dogs from Ont could any of you who have ran at either end of the country put some insight on this.

Dogs better?
Judged differently?
less - more competition?

Looking forward to your thoughts

Chris

[Labber]

Based on what limited experience I've had on smaller circuits (Out east):
The tests were every bit as challenging as Ontario's tests, but the callbacks were more generous, because of a smaller # of dogs entered. It gives you a chance to make up lost ground in the next series.
Running Blue out there has been one of my favorite trial experiences, whether we did well or not.

[Tom Murray]

Hi Chris

I do think in general the trials are somewhat smaller out west, we do see the odd 60 dog open but not many. Most of our trials have between 30 to 40 dogs in the all age. BC has lots of trials especially the Island club who put on several trials each season. We also don't have any pros to speak of out here, I'm talking Saskatchewan, Alberta, BC. So our amateurs also run all the opens and vice versa. We do get the odd pro up from the states, but not many. Another thing we see out here is that most people train their own dogs, in some parts of BC you can train year round. ie no snow, no extreme cold, just lots of rain. Granted there are lots here who go south to train for the winter.
By comparison the dogs here that do well would also do well there once they got used to lily pads and ponds with lots of dead trees to look at. We don't have lily pads here on the prairies, not too many trees either, especially not in the water.

[3 black dogs]

Thanks for the responces

Chris

[Pekisko]

Hi Chris

"we do see the odd 60 dog open but not many. Most of our trials have between 30 to 40 dogs in the all age."

We haven't seen a 60 dog open out here for quite some time, so I will respectfully disagree with Mr. Murray. It would be nice to have that healthy a trial again, although workers have fallen in numbers and it would be hard to cope with a trial that size. In compiling figures from trials posted in 2007 Online, the following average number of dogs competed in All-Age stakes: BC 26 AB 33 SK 17 MB 21. The highest number of entered dogs in an All-Age stake in the last two years was 48 at Logan Lake. That was a trial that was attended by many U.S. pros. The lowest was 13, at trials both in SK and MB - barely above the 8 QAA dogs required for an All-Age stake. The obvious conclusion is that numbers are dwindling in the west and no doubt across Canada. As I have stated in a previous post, I fear the standard of excellence is dwindling as well.

Sharon

[Tom Murray]

I must agree with Sharon on one of her points, the numbers are dwindling in trials across Canada. We did however have entries of 40 and 35 at Rocky Mountain, 45 and 36 at Stampede City, 41 running dogs at Red Deer and 40 and 33 at Alberta Retriever Clubs trials at the end of our season. There were more of course entered, but with bitches in season and injuries I am just quoting the actual amount of running dogs. Red Deer had 47 entered and ARCA had 45 and 37 entered. We do have American friends who come up to run our trial circuit, as do most areas of Canada, I daresay that if we didn't we would indeed have very small trials.
I don't agree about the "standard of excellence dwindling" though. Dogs like Dino, Ralph and Boss have all been high point dogs with excellent records in the past few years. Dino for 2007 and Ralph for 2006. Boss was high point two years running. I do think there are quite a few quality dogs on our western circuit and good handlers with up and coming dogs that should not be discounted.

[Pekisko]

The numbers that are being quoted by Tom are from some of the highest-entry trials in Alberta, there were also the 26 and 24 dogs at Wild Rose and the 30 and 19 dogs at the AFTC spring trial. As shown in my original post, Alberta has the highest average number of dogs, with B.C. followinig. Saskatatchewan and Manitoba are pretty dismal. The three dogs quoted are indeed of excellent calibre, but when I see a placing awarded to a dog who had quit the hunt in the first series, started to come in and had to be handled, I question the standard of judging on that day. Indeed we have some nice young dogs up and coming, but the numbers indicate that the sport is not thriving.

Sharon

[captainjack]

The numbers may be dwindling across parts of Canada, but Ontario numbers remain high due to the high population of pro trainers and their american clients.
This could also be the reason for the lower % figures in Ontario. In a field trial there are only so many dogs capable of winning on any given weekend. With the high number of well trained pro dogs this number is higher in Ontario and thus the tests are tough and the call backs not as generous as the standard is now higher.
Consider the numbers in eastern Ontario - the numbers are usually low. With DeVos and Thompson out east this fall their numbers were in the mid- forties. That is just 2 Ontario pros. Now consider, we have in Ontario the following Dave Thompson, Chuck Dygos, Kevin Cheff, Dan DeVos, Lorne Langevin, Pierre Mathieu, Al Haggarty. Now throw in top amateurs such as Dennis Voigt(2 dogs or 3 dogs), the Youngloves (4 dogs), etc. Each pro has a half dozen dogs capable of winning or placing and these top amateurs have a dog or two who can do it.
Granted all pros do not run every trial, but they ran the majority unless they were out east or in the states competing.
I ran a junior this year in Ontario with 30+ dogs. In the last series, there were 14 dogs - 12 were pro trained. In the placings there was 1 amateur trained and handled dog.
My final comparison was last year when Ralph set the record for most points by a Canadian all-age dog. How many wins did he have coming into Ontario?Once he crossed into Ontario, Jim and Ralph won 1 trial. Ralph finished a high percentage of the Ontario trials, but did not win on a consistent basis - why? Were the tests harder? - I don't necessarily think so. But because of the number of Ontario dogs that were capable of winning on any given weekend. That is our pro influence.

Just my thoughts on the comments regarding dwindling numbers across Canada and lower percentage figures for Ontario dogs.

Peter

[Pekisko]

Good points Peter. So, the game appears healthy in Ontario given the number of dogs compared to trials in western Canada. Agree on your point re more dogs in the pool capable of winning or placing because of the pro factor, which makes it more difficult for one or a few dogs to stand out consistently.

A "watch out" would be something similar to what is happening in the U.S. right now. Club volunteers are getting tired of putting on trials mostly for pros and a few clubs have cancelled their trials because of this. The amateur is still the backbone of this sport because a trial can't be put on without them.

Sharon

[HarryWilliams]

I had the pleasure of Judging a trial in BC a couple of years ago. That experience brought me back last year to run my dogs in a trial also in BC. It was the only trial I ran last year. My experience from both of those trials has me choosing to travel north again and hopefully several times this year. My observations say that there was some excellent dogs running those trials. I really liked seeing a large percentage of the dogs being owner trained. The size of the entries is also appealing to me. Obviously with lower entry numbers a larger percentage of dogs should get to play longer. The atmoshpere was friendly and there was lots of fun being had. I hope my dogs do well at the trials I enter but I don't get all balled up inside over it. Having a trial with 96 dogs in the Open is not much fun. It might help pay the club's bills but it doesn't register on my fun meter.

I saw some really good retrievers & handlers during my stay in Canada. They would be competitive in US Trials also no doubt. But you'd be competing in a field that usually has twice as many dogs entered and provides half as much fun. If all things were equal I know which I prefer. HPW