EIC Test ?

[captainjack]

Things have been quiet on this front. As kits were handed out at the Canadian National Open, I was curious to know how our dogs did compared to our american cousins.
What is the status of the testing and how close are they to going commercial with the kits and testing? Have the DNA results been verified as a reliable test?
If you have a stud dog, who has been found to be clear according to the preliminary tests, do you care if the bitch has not been tested or has been found to be a carrier?
In reverse, if you have a bitch that has been found to be clear according to the same preliminary test, do you care if the stud dog has been tested or has been found to be a carrier?
Will you test or will you not test?
As someone has said, it has been slow around here and since no one wants to talk about two northern teams in the super bowl which is being ruined by playing in a controlled warm climate, I thought this is worth chatting about.

Peter:icon1_lol:

[3 black dogs]

Well this is a good subject Peter :nice work:

I was unable to attain one of the prelimanary test kits at the national they were all gone or spoken for. Yes we will be testing all of our dogs that will be possibly bred or used at stud.
If the research team who is conducting the research has actual found the getetic marker for EIC then yes I would trust the test 100%

As a RESPONCIBLE breeder we feel it is our duty to do everything possible to produce the healthiest and (hopefully genetically sound) dogs we can and the small cost of this test will be worth it in the long run.

Would we use a stud that was a carrier and our bitch was not.yes if the stud had all the traights and physical attributes we were looking for.

All of this can be asked about CNM also there are a tone of people still breeding with out testing for this also know directly where this is coming from also another issue is having the dogs elbows cleared many don't do this also or optigen test for PRA

I hate to say it but this is where the field trial breeders actually drop the ball and kickit right out of the field in comparison the the bench dog breeder they do all the testing that should be performed when breeding a lab to "better the breed."

Before anyone jumps all over that It is said in referance to what they belive is betterment of the breed and not to start a show VS Field we all know it is apples and oranges.

One other question could be raised how many breeders actually look at the structure of the dog ahen choosing the stud and not just picking a stud on titles the titles are important but I feel as FTr's we are not paying enough attention to structure take a look at alot of the top dogs of today straight in the front and poor rear angulation, Skin issues, allergies it goes on from there. Is this possible causing some of these things??



Chris

[luvmylabs]

We will be testing any we might be using for breeding as well. As far as breeding to a carrier, I would only do that if I felt it was the perfect dog for my girls or boy. There will hopefully be a lot of good studs out there that are clear and I will be looking at them first. Never say never in breeding, but would prefer to stay clear if possible.

[TK'S]

I would not breed to a stud carrier no matter how great you think he is. As far as testing it is like hips how long have we bin checking hips to better the breed and is it clean yet ? Terry

[Misty Marsh]

Well I was lucky enough to get both my competitive dogs tested as a part of the U of M study and both are clear which is nice to hear!
What is the status of the testing and how close are they to going commercial with the kits and testing? My understanding from a post that Katie Minor made on another forum was that they have finalized thier study results and are currently waiting for the scientific brains to "green light" thier work and the proposed test. My understanding is that they have not nessesarily identified the sole geneome that causes EIC, but the mutation of a gene, and one copy of the mutation will show a dog to be a carrier, and two copies of the mutation to be effected. Either way a test may be available in the not too distant future and from what Katie said possibly in the next few months if the study does'nt get caught in scientific finalization hell!
DNA results been verified as a reliable test?
My understanding is that it is very accurate!
If you have a stud dog, who has been found to be clear according to the preliminary tests, do you care if the bitch has not been tested or has been found to be a carrier?
In reverse, if you have a bitch that has been found to be clear according to the same preliminary test, do you care if the stud dog has been tested or has been found to be a carrier?
Either way I think that you have to care! It's a crap shoot today with the test not available to the masses, but becuase it's such a watered down puppy market producing possible EIC cariers is not something that I would consider unless it is a breeding that will will greatly improve the breed and the pups will go to serious HT/FT homes and tested in the future to see if they carry the gene? All I know is prelimenary EIC testing results have found 40% of all labs from north america to carry the gene, do you want to roll the dice on this terrible disease, not me! FYI, I do not think that EIC carriers should be eliminated from the breeding pool as it would greatly reduce the talent pool and many quality producers, but untill we all know our dog's results and we can make 100% sure that we are only breeding carrier to clear we are guessing about EIC as many dog's who are effected do not exibit EIC curently, or at thier current age. This means that someone with all the best intentions could easily prodcue EIC effected pups becuse thier dog seemed fine while it was effected or a carrier.

[Retrievers ONLINE]

I would not breed to a stud carrier no matter how great you think he is. As far as testing it is like hips how long have we bin checking hips to better the breed and is it clean yet ? Terry

Here's where we run into big problems to improve the breeding. Firstly, Hips are a polygenic trait for which we have no test-only a "subjective" analysis of phenotype.

With problems like CNM and EIC we have a known genetic mode of inheritance which can be reliably (hopefully)tested for. In the case of these two "diseases" we can implicate some of the best and most well-known sires and dams in history. Now that we can test for them, we can breed some of the very best the labs have ever had and gradually rid ourselves of these problems. In the past, many breedings have used these same dogs in ignorance of these diseases. Virtually all great lines carry some problems but most are not understood or are unknown. To say you won't breed to those that are now understood and are carriers is the opposite of what we should be striving for. The only exception is when you have many choices of great dogs that are clear. That is NOT the case!

The great promise of DNA testing is that we can take the very best lines available and even breed a carrier to a clear and test puppies and move onward in improving the breed while using the greatest performers AND producers we have!

The two greatest producers in the last 30 years have been Honcho and Maxx. Knowing what is known today would you breed to them or not? Would you breed to any dog that has these dogs in their pedigree but hasn't been tested?

I can name a dozen others but I hope you get my point!

Dennis

[Retrievers ONLINE]

Forgot to mention that the latest estimate is that the commercially available test might occur by late spring or early summer. Frankly, I think those estimates are very optimistic since the final refereed journal paper has not yet been approved and published nor has the patent been completed. I am hoping all of this as well as the test submission procedure will happen soon and costs will be reasonabale or else we will continue to have lots of uncertainty. Retrievers ONLINE will be publishing information as soon as it is available.

Dennis

[Misty Marsh]

This test will be a great tool to better help the responsible breedeers to make breeding choices that will avoid producing effected dog's which at the end of the day is the main goal here! Carriers are just that and elimination of them from the breeding pool serves no point, and if the prelimiinary numbers are any indication there will be many carriers out there. This way we can make better more well informed decisions, that's all.

[captainjack]

I agree with Dennis and many others who question the logic of not breeding to a carrier with desireable retriever traits as a carrier and non-carrier will produce a high % of clear pups, percentage of carriers and no affected pups (as I understand it).

There are a number of top studs that have been tested and are carriers and will let you know when you ask. Many breeders are breeding to them . If a clear dog breeds to this stud , what percentage of pups will be carriers? Throw into the mix that we are also breeding unknown bitches or studs - if the dam proves to be a carrier, what percentage of pups will be affected? And if both prove to be carriers (if neither has been tested) what are the percentages?

We can say that we can test the litter, but how do we test our litter as the puppy packages are not yet available and may not be for a period of time? Would one not be wise to keep away from a carrier until these are available?

I look forward to seeing what developes on this front.

In the meantime, Online is one of the best sources for up-to-date information on EIC and other health issues related to retrievers. I would hope that everyone on this site is a subscriber. I would hate to think where the Canadian scene would be without it.

Peter

[Tom Murray]

Dennis,
cudo's to you for keeping us all informed with the updates on both CNM and EIC. We were fortunate in getting some of the test kits and had our dogs tested, all are clear, which made us very happy. In response to breeding a clear to a carrier, we would if the carrier had all the qualities we were looking for.
Peter in answer to how does a breeder test a litter, one good way would be to send in the dewclaws that you had removed at a day old. This way the testers get the DNA from all the pups in the litter and you should be able to get concrete results.
Marg

[luvmylabs]

Dennis,
cudo's to you for keeping us all informed with the updates on both CNM and EIC. We were fortunate in getting some of the test kits and had our dogs tested, all are clear, which made us very happy. In response to breeding a clear to a carrier, we would if the carrier had all the qualities we were looking for.
Peter in answer to how does a breeder test a litter, one good way would be to send in the dewclaws that you had removed at a day old. This way the testers get the DNA from all the pups in the litter and you should be able to get concrete results.
Marg

Didn't know it could be done this way. That is great. Does it take longer than the swabs? Would it be more expensive than the swabs? I know the CNM DNA took longer and was more expensive.

Anne

[jiggy]

Hi Anne. I tested my recent litter via the dew claw method. It was very easy and I had the results back in less than two weeks. I am one of the very few breeders to have gone this route so far, only because the test is now closed to the public and will not be available again until it is "official", last I heard. I'm not sure how they'll handle this method once it becomes "official", re: permanent identification. I'm not sure of the cost, I did send a donation to the University to have it done...and they did this for me because I have been supporting their pilot testing from the beginning.
If you have any specific questions, best would be to ask Katie Minor at U of M. She is fantastic in answering any questions and has been very helpful and friendly.
Marcy