Moving up to Seasoned...excuse the length

[nimkii]

I am training Abbie for a seasoned level test/tests this year . I have introed her to multiple marks - singles on the first run of the day, then a double on the second run as well I run the third mark (most difficult) as a single after completing the double. Hopefully I can have her running triples no problem, that way the doubles on a seasoned hunt test will seem mundane. We are currently working without any noise (no calls or guns) on the line to ensure steadiness and to get the concept through to her there may be/will be multiple marks at any given time. As for the blinds, that is where I failed in my training. I have gone back to basics and am starting over at three handed casting and am going to follow the Lardy training outline. Abbie hasn't been CC'd yet so that will be next (dummy collar on now for the past month when doing any training), before we go back to pile work.

My question is in regards to the walk up. The bird is thrown, shot fired, dog stays steady until released for the retrieve and then delivers to hand. When I read the seasoned hunt test rules it says dog is on lead to and from the line, obviously this can't happen when handling the gun on a walk up. Is the dog put on lead after the walk up is completed or do you just proceed to the line with the dog at heel? I did some walk up intro with her last year but not much, this year is a new ballgame though. And no, I didn't watch any seasoned tests last year and now I wish I had.

Some input please.

[franklauzon]

During the Ottawa HRC test last year, Piper passed her second SHR test on the first day, so on the second day I decided to run in HR... We failed, but I felt it was better experience than just passing another SHR test. Damn no-bird ;)

The walk-up was something I had not trained for, and it was fine... As long as Abbie will walk at heel off leash, and will sit to the whistle, then it should be fine.

Basically you walk up with the dog at heel, the bird launches, you blow the whistle, dog sits (hopefully), you shoot the gun "at the bird", and then release the dog.

The leash that you are refering to, is for walking from the holding blind to the line, and from one line to the next... Walk-up, Marks, Blind...

[AD18]

First thing I'd do would be get the collar conditioning all done and out of the way. That's real important if you have not done yet. Then reintro to your blind/pile work. That sets you up far greater control in casting, sit to whistle on walkup, pretty much everything. The rest of the stuff will fall into place after that.

[Tim]

As Frank said, the line is where a portion of the test starts, whether the first portion is the walk-up, marks, or the blind you bring the dog to it on lead and depending on how far it is between each portion you may be asked to leash the dog between lines, but you won't be carrying the gun when the dog is on lead.

[Greg]

So your dog has to sit at the site of the bird launching or am I miss understanding?

I thought a walk up was. You walk..dog at heel... bird launches.. dog sits when the shot is taken .. until released? Oh and does the judge tell you when to send your dog?

[Kevin Hannah]

So your dog has to sit at the site of the bird launching or am I miss understanding?

I thought a walk up was. You walk..dog at heel... bird launches.. dog sits when the shot is taken .. until released? Oh and does the judge tell you when to send your dog?

Dog is brought to the line on lead. You sit the dog down, remove your leash and pick up the shotgun. Load one shell into the gun and start walking with the dog healing along a predefined path. At some point along the way a bird is launched you shoot it and after the bird is on the ground and you have shown that the dog is steady you release the dog. Judges will not tell you when to send the dog, they will however expect you to show them the dog is steady by waiting untill after the bird is on the ground to release the dog.

The walkup is usually the first test in the setup, you may also see from time to time the same thing but it will be after you have completed all the other elements of the test and will do a walk out.

The dogs now are REQUIRED to be on leash as they walk from station to station now. I don't really agree with it but thats the way it is, I really don't think it is too much to ask that a seasoned dog walk a reasonable distance between stations off lead under seasoned level control. I would now as a judge though expect a leashed dog to walk nicely from station to station and will be watching that a little closer from now on.

Don't lose too much sleep over the walkup, most dogs have very little trouble with this portion of the test. I think in all the seasoned dogs I have judged I have only lost a couple on the walkup for breaking.

Kevin

[Tim]

The dogs now are REQUIRED to be on leash as they walk from station to station now. I don't really agree with it but thats the way it is, I really don't think it is too much to ask that a seasoned dog walk a reasonable distance between stations off lead under seasoned level control. I would now as a judge though expect a leashed dog to walk nicely from station to station and will be watching that a little closer from now on.
Kevin

Kevin, I was at the seminar in Ohio in January and this issue was raised, well it's clear as mud still. During the lunch break Paul called Tim and discussed it,
and afterwards the example he gave did not require the dog to be on lead between stations because the stations were close together-but the dog was being judged for control while off lead the same as on lead. Now he also said that if the stations were far apart it made sense to leash them. I got the impression that he was leaving it as the handlers choice whether to leash or not, leave your dog off lead and be judged the same as the handler that used a lead.
Tim

[Anna Scott]

At Georgian Bay last year the seasoned dogs HAD to be put on leash to go from station to station. The stations were no farther that 30 ft apart. The field rep insisted that this was the rule for seasoned dogs and that it must be followed. So you brought your dog to the walk up line on leash, sat, took the leash off and then were handed the gun and a shell for the walk up. Once the bird was retreived you handed the gun to the marshal and put your dog back on lead to walk the 10 yds to the blind station, sat the dog took off the leash , were handed the gun and the shell. Again after the retrieve the dog was put back on lead to walk to the mark station. This distance was ridiculously short and the dog did not need to be on lead. I found the putting on and taking off of the lead just added time to the test. Made it as long as this post.
Not sure when this rule changed but I can remember with my first dog having to be off leash from the holding blind to the line because we were sneaking up on the pond to jump shot.

[Kevin Hannah]

Kevin, I was at the seminar in Ohio in January and this issue was raised, well it's clear as mud still. During the lunch break Paul called Tim and discussed it,
and afterwards the example he gave did not require the dog to be on lead between stations because the stations were close together-but the dog was being judged for control while off lead the same as on lead. Now he also said that if the stations were far apart it made sense to leash them. I got the impression that he was leaving it as the handlers choice whether to leash or not, leave your dog off lead and be judged the same as the handler that used a lead.
Tim

Was your seminar before or after the National meeting last summer. It all changed after the meeting. The rule has always been there that they need to be on lead "to the retrieving line" i was always interpreted thought that once to the retrieving line they could be off lead from station to station. It was decided at the meeting that there are multiple retrieving lines in a seasoned test so they need to be leashed up.

I don't agree with htis at all but this is what they want.

Kevin

[Kevin Hannah]

At Georgian Bay last year the seasoned dogs HAD to be put on leash to go from station to station. The stations were no farther that 30 ft apart. The field rep insisted that this was the rule for seasoned dogs and that it must be followed. So you brought your dog to the walk up line on leash, sat, took the leash off and then were handed the gun and a shell for the walk up. Once the bird was retreived you handed the gun to the marshal and put your dog back on lead to walk the 10 yds to the blind station, sat the dog took off the leash , were handed the gun and the shell. Again after the retrieve the dog was put back on lead to walk to the mark station. This distance was ridiculously short and the dog did not need to be on lead. I found the putting on and taking off of the lead just added time to the test. Made it as long as this post.
Not sure when this rule changed but I can remember with my first dog having to be off leash from the holding blind to the line because we were sneaking up on the pond to jump shot.

You are right about the time issue. I really don't think it is a lot to ask a seasoned dog to walk from station to station un "seasoned" level control.

Some people say well it only take a minute to put it on. With a walkup, 2 blinds and 2 sets of marks in the test it means each dog is leashed up 5 times. So this adds 5 minutes per dog, I have judged 25 seasoned dogs numerous times at LOHRC so this adds 125 minutes to the day which can be very lond to start with. These numbers don't include any reruns due to no birds or anything else. Guess the finished flights will be at HQ waiting on the seasoned dogs to come in now.

[Tim]

Was your seminar before or after the National meeting last summer. It all changed after the meeting. The rule has always been there that they need to be on lead "to the retrieving line" i was always interpreted thought that once to the retrieving line they could be off lead from station to station. It was decided at the meeting that there are multiple retrieving lines in a seasoned test so they need to be leashed up.

I don't agree with htis at all but this is what they want.

Kevin

The seminar was this past January. I still don't believe how much discussion this issue causes.

[Kevin Hannah]

The seminar was this past January. I still don't believe how much discussion this issue causes.

The HRC inc. needs to decide which way they want the rule interpruted and send the info out to the seasoned judges so they know. I judged a test in June and had the dogs off lead from the first retieving line untill the end of the test. I judged in August and had to have them on leash between ALL stations, didn't matter if the were 2 steps or 20 ft apart. This change came back from the National meeting. The test in August had a field rep and a member of the HRC executive at it si it was not coming from the club level

Kevin

[Tim]

The HRC inc. needs to decide which way they want the rule interpruted and send the info out to the seasoned judges so they know. I judged a test in June and had the dogs off lead from the first retieving line untill the end of the test. I judged in August and had to have them on leash between ALL stations, didn't matter if the were 2 steps or 20 ft apart. This change came back from the National meeting. The test in August had a field rep and a member of the HRC executive at it si it was not coming from the club level

Kevin

I agree it needs to be settled, the impression I got at the seminar was that it wasn't black and white.
I really don't see how this is a big deal, leave it up to the handler unless the judges require the lead for safety, and judge accordingly. Started has options for the handler, restrain the dog or use the gun, but if you use the gun and your dog breaks you may fail.
Tim

[Kevin Hannah]

I agree it needs to be settled, the impression I got at the seminar was that it wasn't black and white.
I really don't see how this is a big deal, leave it up to the handler unless the judges require the lead for safety, and judge accordingly. Started has options for the handler, restrain the dog or use the gun, but if you use the gun and your dog breaks you may fail.
Tim


I can tell you how I use to do it. If I had the dog moving from station to station and it was not that far I would keep them off lead. If for some reason I had to move the dogs a long way from one station to the other I would give them the option of going on or off lead.

I don't think there was anything wrong with the way it was done before, I don't think we give seasoned level dogs enough credit. I also feel the marks at seasoned could be a little tougher, the problem is that if you set them up like that the commitee usually has trouble approving it. Of all the dogs I have judged at seasoned the majority fail the test for lack of control on the blind......usually water.

Kevin

[LeeW]

I think the rule book is very clear on this matter .I will not post the rules because i have posted them before and still with the black and white print in front of some people they have a hard time comprehending the written word.
The decision of the being on or off lead should be up to the judges not the handlers in seasoned so that all can be judged on the same test.:angry:

[Greg]

I'm new and plan on running HRC events late this summer or next year depending on how our training goes :) so don't chew me a new one LOL!

But what I would expect that in Seasoned your dog is off leash from the holding blind until the end of the test.

This is basic OB. A dog at the seasoned level is running blinds.. If I can't control my dog beside me (at heel). How can I expect to have any level of control running a blind?

As far as I see it.. anything after started should be off leash.

[LET'M RUN]

I would have to agree with you 100% Greg. But the regulations of HRC is what it is. Even in finished level, there are dogs (not many) with finished passes, with little control coming to the line and receiving there title. I believe this tarnishes the title. The Grand is the true test and lack of control in the dog shows, that's why so many dogs fail when they get there . Just my two cents.

Tony

[LeeW]

I would have to agree the you 100% Greg. But the writing is what it is. Even in finished, there are dogs (not many) With Finished passes with little control coming to the line. I believe this tarnishes the title. The Grand is the true test and why so many fail. Just my two cents.

Tony

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[LET'M RUN]

Sorry Lee, I hope this makes more sence. I just wish the standards were raised to the achevment of the title. An HR or HRCH dog,should mean a great dog, a dog to enjoy to hunt with. If we are not using these dogs for hunting and only wanted them to run 150 to 400 yard marks and blinds, we should have just bought a grey hound Dog. :rockon:

[LeeW]

I'm still confused what is your point ?

[LET'M RUN]

The point is, I like Greg's idea of putting the leash away after the started level. Because the ABC of a dog should be installed in the dog before it reaches seasoned and that is why it is called seasoned. I'm new @ the retriever game, but have had very good obedient German Shepard's for a good part of my life. A good obedient, line manner dog should be a better marker and a better handling dog. At the end of the day the dogs and training we have are incredible and in SOME cases the basics are over looked. I hope I'm in the right to say this. But one thing we can all agree on that I have seen over this last year @ trials, was the great friendship among members and the great dogs we have.smiliesex:

Tony