Judging questions - field trials.

[captainjack]

This seems to be a good place to discuss some aspects of judging which could be a benefit to all of us. It could act as a mini - seminar. Where we can ask judging questions.

I will start us off if there is an interest. Signalling for the guns.

You are judging a field trial - any stake. a) You are signalling for the guns.
What are you watching?
b) You are the judge not signalling for the guns. What are you watching?
c) You are handling the honouring dog. What are you watching?

Where do you stand or sit?

Feel free to add your own questions. Quote the rule book and give your answers.
I would think it best to stick to field trials, but would suggest someone else could start judging questions - hunt tests in the hunt test section.

[Labber]

You are judging a field trial - any stake.
a) You are signalling for the guns.
What are you watching?
I am watching to know that the gunners are ready.
I am watching for any gun safety issues.
I am watching for the handler to signal that they are ready.
I am watching the handler.
I am watching the fall of the bird to make sure it is a fair one.
I am watching the bird hit the ground to time my call for the next bird.
I am watching the guns to ensure that they retire properly.
I am watching the dogs work in the field.
I am watching the delivery of the bird.
I am watching my watch hoping to get a coffee soon.



b) You are the judge not signalling for the guns. What are you watching?The dog and handler.
The honor dog
The fall of the birds.
The work in the field.


c) You are handling the honouring dog. What are you watching?

The honor dog and the running dog


Where do you stand or sit?

In a place where I am not interfering with dogs and handlers, and I can still judge the work.
Being careful about shadow and peripheral vision, of dog & handler.

I'm sure I've missed a few points.
There are others here with more & less experience.
Chime in!

[captainjack]

Scott, good answer. Trying to watch all this you can sure understand why there are 2 judges. I like to try to watch the dogs eyes - how else can you determine if the dog did not see the bird for no fault of his own as stated in the rule book?

How often do we as judges put gunners or birds or the firing order of the guns in such a way as it is impossible for many dogs to see the bird? or forget that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west - even in Long Point.

Your comment of not interfering with the running dog when signalling for the guns is a great point. Believe it or not - I ran a trial where the judge stood behind the running dog and shouted - "guns up to signal to an out of sight gunner to fire ". Needless, to say Freyja turned around to see who was shouting as the gun went off.

Peter.

[Labber]

I think watching the dog's eyes is a good idea.
You would likely have trouble seeing the eyes of my dog at times, as he may be a few feet in front of me and the judges.
This begs the question re the honoring or running dog creeping.
1)At what point do you call interference on one dog or the other?
2)What are your tolerences for creeping?
3)What if the handler of a creeper can quietly re heel the dog with a couple "heels" as opposed to having to do so loudly?
4) How much penalty to the dog in the different stakes?
(Rule book comes into play here, especially)

5) Mitigating circumstances? ie no birds, reruns, other noisy dog on line
6) Are you hurting the high desire, stylish dog by penalizing this?

No breaking, just creeping.

Personally I feel we have to respect the rule book, but I like a dog that wants the birds. Before I owned a high flyer, I was still impressed with the wild child. They are a pleasure to watch sometimes.

Are Peter and I the only ones who are interested in this?

[Lpgar]

Me....just sitting back and learning from the experianced ones....One one Derby can not make Me an expert. *L*

But....I really like judges that set up something that has the creeper punish themselves.

[jiggy]

Question from someone who has only judged Derbies and Quals...what does one do with a bad creeper?
So say...dog goes out x amount of feet as the birds go down. When last bird drops, dog does not automatically re-heel. Judges do not give a number...asks handler to re-heel dog. Handler saying VERY loudly (yelling?) HEEL HEEL HEEL...over and over again. Dog finally (after an eternity it seems) heels back and the dog goes on its merry way to pin the marks.
So, now what? Should these dogs gets dropped? Why or why not?
Purely hypothetical situation...but I have seen a couple like this...one in Montana last summer running in the Open that was unbelievable. Guy was marching around behind the judges "pretending" to leave...trying to get the dog on the mat. It went on forever! I did enjoy it though...as by the 80th dog...the test does get a little boring.
My dog also had to honor in a situation like this last year in the Open. It didn't bother her in the least...but it "could" bother other dogs?
So...teach me...what are your thoughts?

[Bryan.M]

For some reason I have been under the impression that once you signal for the birds,if your dog moves a toe nail your done for the day.Shows how much I know.I guess it's kinda good I've been training that way.:confused:

[kawarthalabs]

I to am interested in this thread as I will be co-judging the junior at the Pine Ridge trial along with Peter. I have to say I am really looking forward to this next step in fieldtrialing and certainly hope to one day judge all age stakes. Please keep the dialog going on this one as there is much to be learned here. As a side note what do you experienced judges make sure you have in your judges kit?

Thanks Tony.

[Kevin Hannah]

As a side note what do you experienced judges make sure you have in your judges kit?

Thanks Tony.


ADVIL :darkbeer:

[captainjack]

If one reads the rule book, it discusses creeping under moderate faults,but does say that these faults could actually be so slight to be classified as a minor fault or so severe to be a classified as serious fault. It also states that these serious faults are usually suffient to justify elimination from the stake.

I find judges reluctant to eliminate dogs on severe creeping. Why?

About 30+ years ago I judged my first junior with a legend in Ontario Bob Blyth. He drew a line in the ground about 5 feet in front of our running line and said that is our creep line. If dogs creeps beyond that point, we will ask them to reheel their dog. He then went out another 5 feet and put another line in the sand and said that is our pick up line. If the dog creeps past that point, we ask the handler to pick up their dog. Keep in mind at anytime in a minor stake you can tell your dog to sit or stay if you think the dog is breaking and still remain in the trial.

If dogs are so much better than they were , why have we let the standard on steadiness go? Or have we?

I still like to discuss the creep line and pick up line with my co-judge. If this is explained to the handlers, there can be no misunderstanding on our interretation of this rule. Do we always agree? It would not be a field trial if we agreed on everything as not all things are black and white. This is a grey area. This is one way of handling it if the two judges agree.

I do not get excited when judging with creeping, but do get very excited about a severe creeper who borders on unsteadiness. I like to see that high flyer who sits on line, shows good line manners and goes like hell once released. There are many, many of those out there.

Peter

PS. Gar how does one penalize a creeper if not by classifying it as a fault and judging the fault accordingly - which could mean eliminating or removing from the placements if severe enough?

[Davadar]

I like to put the mat where the dog can see each mark clearly.If the dog creeps on one mark the others become harder or impossible to see.This way the dog that creeps penalizes itself.

Dave

[Lpgar]

Peter..

Dave just posted My answer to creeping....I ment to suggest that the Dog should make it's own disadvantage by creeping. IE....creep enough after the second bird....You will not see the 3rd bird of the quad go down. Nice if that bird was retired.

Sure particularly in minor stakes...make note of the creep....if all work is equal the creeper finishes behind the Non-creeper on My sheets. But...Not necessarily be illiminated from competion...Unless the creep becomes an unsteadiness issue...or attempts to re-heel are blatent refusals.

Gar

[captainjack]

Dave and Gar,

I think you are both avoiding the question. What is your penalty for severe creeping? If there is no penalty, you are imposing a disadvantage on the dog that sits and has good line manners.
I have seen many tests and very seldom is there a test that prevents the severe creeper from seeing the birds unless you have a gun behind the dog.
I am interested in your comments regarding the rule book.

To Tony,

Online had an excellent summary on what a judge should have in their judges bag.


Peter.

[Lpgar]

Peter

I think because of the vagueness of the ruling in the book it is very important to let the Dog fail if need be. It is really about the marking...I am not convinced in Most cases that the ones that running back and forth while watching the birds down (particularly if running forward puts them out of position to see all the birds) will mark the birds as well as one that sits and watches them down. So let's throw tough birds that Dogs have to watch down all of the time. Then We can judge them and the steady dog that is trained to watch his birds will excel.

But if the unsteadiness becomes an interferance with a honouring Dog...Gone...

If I will continue to run dogs from the Mat. So...re-heel will be done and judged as part of Control and trainability.

I have seen Dogs win field trials by creeping on every Mark...and almost barking as the birds go down they were so noisy....But not in My open will that happen I can promise You that.

Gar

[Retrievers ONLINE]

If I will continue to run dogs from the Mat. So...re-heel will be done and judged as part of Control and trainability.

I have seen Dogs win field trials by creeping on every Mark...and almost barking as the birds go down they were so noisy....But not in My open will that happen I can promise You that.

Gar

Gar,

Hoping you'll clarify this before I run under you in your first Open judging assignment.

Are you saying that if my dog creeps off the mat a foot while watching birds but otherwise does everything better than everybody else that he won't win?

Are you also implying that if you give instructions to the handler that the handler must send his dog while he(the handler) is on the mat But his dog is only a foot off the mat, that will you make him re-heel his dog?

Let us know why you care about a foot or two off the mat?

Cheers,

(From sunny Florida where I always run my dogs from the mat!)

Dennis

PS. Some of the best markers are the worst creepers! But I hope mine don't:cheesy:

[Lpgar]

Sure Hope your there when and If I get that first assignment

Anyway....Handlers would be advised that Dogs will be sent from the Mat or defined area before the stake for sure. The only reason that I care about the foot or two....is where do you draw the line. If I said 2 feet are OK...why not 3....or 4....or in the water infront of the line...ect. Those great markers that move I know are just so concerned about seeing their marks better that they looking for the best vantage Point. But it is up to the judges to set up tests that do not necessarily give those Dogs an advantage over the rock steady ones. Steadiness I would considered a Trained attribute and would be considered a possitive to Me.

Not saying that creeping in it's self be considered enough for ellimation or even winning. All things must be judged as a package. What I am saying is that if all things are equal on the Marks preferance will be given to the Dog that didn't creep. If the Creeper was sent from the mat and was the only Dog to excel at all Marks of the Trial He would eventually be the winner.

On the part about re-heeling and handlability..... I would consider multiple attempts to re-heel a Dog the same as any other refusal as a fault and would have to judge as any other fault. Multiple minor faults (could even be a moderate fault if fragrant) could be justification for illimination at a Trial.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion....that is Peter's intent and that is how We can all learn from it.

Gar