Another judging question how do you handle a noisy dog?

[3 black dogs]

Senario. Dog comes to line barking or whining and is noisy as all the marks go down. does the dog get carried with good work?

Chris

[ducksoup]

What stake is dog in??? Is it consistent noise every series???? As others have pointed out elsewhere, some very noisy dogs on line have been great markers and won FTs -- guess it depends on judges and/or what standard handler allows (not to mention standard judges allow)

[3 black dogs]

Sorry about that it is a AA stake and it is the first series.

Chris

[ducksoup]

Based on this being first series and having done good work, but still dependent on judges' standards, I would say YES dog would be carried

[Kevin Hannah]

I would say YES dog would be carried

I find that VERY suprising.

I know this is the field trial section but if it was an HRC finished test, the book is closed before the last bird hits the ground. Dog can run the entire test if the handler wants but I am not judging it at that point.

Kevin

[LeeW]

I thought noise was an eliminating fault ?

[ducksoup]

Just reread original post -- missed part about barking on line -- so dog would be eliminated due to noise -- but how many FT dogs have gone on to win AA and even been titled that were noisy on line (even if just constant whining) ????

[Misty Marsh]

From Scott's rule book post! 17.2 Serious Faults
17.2.1 These faults are usually sufficient to justify elimination
from the stake:[/B](a) Retrieving a decoy and returning with it –
mandatory elimination.[Section 16.1.8 (a)]
(b) Breaking – mandatory elimination, except
in Qualifying and Junior stakes. [Section 16.2.2
(a) & (b)]
(c) Hard Mouth – badly damaged game, which in
the opinion of the judges was caused solely by
the dog without justification – mandatory elimination
[Section 16.2.5(d)]
(d) Watching blind retrieves being planted for or
retrieved by another dog – mandatory elimination
of both dog and handler from the stake.
[Section 15.4.4(e) Watching birds being thrown for or retrieved by
another dog - – mandatory elimination of both
dog and handler from the stake. [Section
15.4.5]
(f) Repeated evidence of poor nose. [Section
16.1.6 (a) & (b)]
(g) Reluctance to enter either rough cover, water,
ice, mud or any other situation involving
unpleasantness or difficulties for the dog after
having been ordered to several times. [Sections
16.1.7 (a) – cf. Section 17.3.1 (c)]
(h) Returning to the handler without the bird
and without having been called in. [Section
16.1.8 (b), (i)]
(i) Stopping its hunt [Section 16.1.8 (b) (ii)]
(j) Switching birds (giving up after a search for one
bird and going to an area of another fall or
dropping a bird it is retrieving and going for
another). [Section 16.1.8 (c) & (d)]
(k) Blinking the bird (ignoring it when found and
leaving it) [Section 16.1.8 (b) (v)]
(l) To hold or intentionally touch a dog while
under judgment [Section 15.4.7 (c)]
(m) Out of control (paying no attention to many
whistles or directions of its handler) [Section
8.1.2 & Section 16.2.3 (e)]
(n) Extreme freeze (unwillingness to release a bird
on delivery until compelled to do so by severe
methods) [Section 16.2.5 (a) & (b)]
(o) Loud and prolonged whining or barking. [Section
16.2.3 (b) - cf. section 17.3.1 (j) & 17.4.1 (m)]
(p) Deliberate blocking by a handler so a dog will
not see each bird as it falls (this applies both to
the working dog and the honouring dog) [Section
15.4.8]
(q) Throwing anything to persuade a dog to enter
water or to enter water. [Section 16.1.8 (a)]
(r) Failure to find a bird the dog should have
found. [Section 16.1.8 (a)]
(s) Touching a dog or hissing or speaking or otherwise
threatening a dog by displaying equipment
or making obvious threatening gestures in an
All-Age stake to restrain it from breaking,
except in extraordinary circum-stances. [Section
15.4.6 & Section 15.4.7]
17.3 Moderate Faults
17.3.1 Infractions in this category may actually be so slight as
to warrant their consideration as only a minor fault, or
they may be so severe as to warrant their consideration
as a serious fault. Repetitions of a moderate fault or a
combination of several of these moderate faults may
readily convert the total infraction into a serious fault.(a) Failure to mark the area of the fall, requiring that
the dog be handled to it (worse on a single or first
bird than on any subsequent birds) [Section
16.1.2 (a) to (d)]
(b) Leaving the area of a fall or not going to it and disturbing
too much cover [Section 16.1.2 (d)]
(c) Reluctance to enter rough cover water, ice, mud or
other situations involving unpleasant going for the
dog. [Section 16.1.7 (a) - cf. Section 17.2.1 (g)]
(d) Hunting in a slow, disinterested, unenthusiastic
manner either at once or after a short search [Section
16.1.9 (a), (b) & (c)]
(e) Poor style, including a disinterested attitude, a
slow or reluctant departure, quest for game, or
return with it. [Section 16.1.8 (a) & (b), (ii) &
(iii)]
(f) Popping (looking back for directions on a marked
bird before an extensive search) [Section 16.1.8
(a) & (b), (iii)]
(g) Noisily or frequently restraining a dog from breaking
in minor stakes, except in extraordinary
circumstances. [Section 16.2.3 (d) - cf. Section
17.2.1 (o) & 17.4.1 (g)]
(h) Not stopping for directions after 2 or 3 whistles,
particularly consecutive whistles, which the dog
should have heard. [Section 16.2.3 (a) (iv), (b) &
(c) - cf. Section 17.2.1 (m) & 17.4.1 (h)]
(i) Deliberate failure to take lines and various directions
given to the dog (failure to hold lines and
casts more than a short distance) [Section 16.2.4
(a) to (d) - cf. Section 17.4.1 (k)]
(j) Moderate whining or barking of short duration.[Section 16.2.3 (b) - cf. Section 17.2.1
(o) & 17.4.1 (m)]
(k) Going well out of its way by land to a fall in a
marking test, without certainty of purpose, to
avoid going into the water on a water retrieve.
[Section 10.3 & Section 16.1.7 (a)]
(l) extreme or persistent creeping or serious lack of
steadiness combined with general poor line manners.
[Section 10.3 & Sections 16.2.2 (a) & 16.2.3
(a) - cf. Section 17.4.1 (f)]
(m) popping on a blind if repeated [section 16.2.4
(d) - cf. Section 17.4.1(i)]
17.4 Minor Faults
17.4.1 Either severe or repeated or a combination of these
minor faults may convert them into a moderate fault
or even a serious fault. Also they may be so slight as
not to merit a penalty at all.
(a) Lack of attention [Section 16.1.9 (c) (i)]
(b) Going well out of it way by land on the return
from a water retrieve, without certainty of purpose.
[Section 10.3 & Section 16.1.2 (d)]
(c) Poor line manners including heeling poorly, not
immediately taking and staying in the designated
position, tendency to creep. [Section 10.3 &
Section 16.2.3 (a) & (c)]
(d) Slow pick-up of a bird, dropping a bird at delivery
or during the return, slow return, sloppy
handling of a bird. [Section 16.1.9 (a) & (c),
(iv) &[/QUOTE] I would have to say that a AA FT dog with that type of noise issue from the time it likely entered the holding blind to the point it had a bird stuffed in it's mouth to shut it up would have to be dropped despite it's work! I think that you need to consider that a dog at this level should have had issues like this dealt with long ago, and it crosses the noise line, but also the trainability aspect, personally I'd be embarrassed to bring a dog like that to the line in any stake nevermind a AA FT.

[Misty Marsh]

but how many FT dogs have gone on to win AA and even been titled that were noisy on line (even if just constant whining) ????
How true! Not to spin this thread off in a totaly new direction, but how many in the FT game tend to think that the noise issue has really become a non-issue to many judges? It seems to me that in many cases the high powered dog's who may sometimes have a noise issue get it overlooked/compensated by thier stylish work.

[captainjack]

I do not think that it is being overlooked by field trial judges. Anyone can find an excuse to drop a dog. What the rule book says is for it to be a serious fault it must be "loud and prolonged whining or barking". Most times the whining is not loud and the barking is not prolonged. If a dog barks or yelps as it released is this prolonged???? In all-age stakes, no judge will tolerate loud whining or prolonged barking. Any that I have run under anyways.
If there is a serious noise problem, it will surface again and can be dealt with fairly at that time. But if it is not loud or prolonged, one has to make notes and judge the dog on the work in the field.

That is my opinion.

Peter

[waterfowler65]

I say he doesnt get carried through!!!!!!! Now that being said, you havent clarified WHO IS JUDGING....lol.......WHO OWNS the dog.....and WHO is HANDLING the dog....
Unfortunately politics will come into play sooner or later....
Because YOU KNOW Chris if it's me or you on the line with that barking dog we are MOST definately not getting carried over, I cant say the same if certain Pros or certain individuals are on the line, the same will apply!!!!!!!!:worms:

Later....Marc.....

[Misty Marsh]

I do agree with what your saying as far as loud whining as an isolated instance in 1 series, but when it happens at a moderate level over the entire trial can it not be looked at as a vaid reason to drop a dog, the rules seem to interprit as much? I guess what I'm getting at is that we have all seen dog's, maybe not bark, but moderatly whine (my interpratation, I know) the whole time they are at the line the entire trial and regardless the dog is not dropped, maybe downgraded on paper, maybe in the placings, but almost always never dropped. My point is if this particular fault has become almost acceptable as the byproduct of the type of high rollers in the upper levels today or possibly becuase judges become faced with the difficult task of dropping these types of dogs later in a trial outside of the work to be difficult?:stirpot:

[Labber]

Judges have to act within the parameters of the rulebook.
This still leaves a ton of room for imagination.
It has been said to me that the same rule can have many different interpretations, and all of them can be right. A very good point.
I think if you have an opinion about what you want to see in the dogs you are testing, your interpretation of the rulebook should support your opinion.
So..............

17.1.1(d)
(d) The primary consideration of judges in respect to
the importance of faults here listed, as well as others
which may occur, is to determine the extent to
which any and all such infractions would detract
from the full enjoyment of a day’s shoot.

Noise as the birds are coming in (hunting) or falling (FT) would detract from a hunt in a big way.
Once the birds are down, a little yip due to excitement is excusable to me, but it's the judges who decide what is little and what is not.
A yip or even a short bark as sent, would likely not be a concern if it happened once or even twice.
But prolonged or repeated instances of whining, yipping and or barking will be penalized heavily in any stake, whether it is before or after the birds are down.
That's my interpretation of the rule quoted above.

[ducksoup]

I do not think that it is being overlooked by field trial judges. Anyone can find an excuse to drop a dog. What the rule book says is for it to be a serious fault it must be "loud and prolonged whining or barking". Most times the whining is not loud and the barking is not prolonged. If a dog barks or yelps as it released is this prolonged???? In all-age stakes, no judge will tolerate loud whining or prolonged barking. Any that I have run under anyways.
If there is a serious noise problem, it will surface again and can be dealt with fairly at that time. But if it is not loud or prolonged, one has to make notes and judge the dog on the work in the field.

Peter

Totally agree with Peter on this -- -- has to be prolonged -- and a yip as released or even slight whining on line is not enough to eliminate

[Lpgar]

Ok...So... If they do bark a bit....or Yip a bit in an All Age...but go out and pound the Marks... But the quiet Dog hunts back side of a retired for a bit...Who wins?

Been there done that at a couple of trials and seen the noisy critter go on to win.

Is that right?

[Misty Marsh]

A "yip" in the first series should'nt be looked at as a mayjor fault and dropping an excitable dog for that would in my opinion be "over the top" for sure (I'd be out of many trials)! But would a dog that "yipped" upon release on every initial (1 st bird of the tripples) release who also whined for every bird falling for the entire trial at a low-moderate level be dropped, by the rule book you would think so, in the real world very unlikely, that's the point that I'm getting at, that this "fault" is not being taken seriously anymore by many AA judges, and can be easily overlooked by pinpoint marking.
Ok...So... If they do bark a bit....or Yip a bit in an All Age...but go out and pound the Marks... But the quiet Dog hunts back side of a retired for a bit...Who wins?

Been there done that at a couple of trials and seen the noisy critter go on to win.
I'd have to agree! I understand that marking is of primary importance, but when does noise and line manners make a dent in the placing, when we all have seen noisy/dancers beat out the dog who was quiet/solid with the small hunts week after week? I understand that the rules can be interprated many ways due to the vagueness of the book, and the judges have a tough job, so although this is a "knock the judges" sort of responce I do think overall they all generally do a great job! I just personally feel that noise & line manners have been slightly overlooked for marking abilites and for a AA level dog at the pinnical of it's sport should display more "polish" and the dog who can display that should be graded for it appropriatly, that's all.

[captainjack]

There are general comments being stated here which I believe are totally untrue. First, politics in judging..... totally disagree and if I felt that a judge was political or untruthful as being stated here, I would save my entry fee and not go to the trial. I have been dropped over the last 30 years by almost every judge on the circuit.... not once because of political reasons. Even judged with a judge who was suspended for a period of time..... guess who won the trial.... the person who registered the complaint to get the judge suspended. Give me a break it is hard enough to judge without these types of comments being made. My theory is train harder, train smarter and train more often.
Also, Scott is right on with his understanding of the rule on noise. Again, I have not seen many if any noisey dogs in the major stakes. It is dealt with by the trainer and they know the consequences of excess noise.
Where I have seen it is in the junior and qualifying with judges trying to encourage people to stay into the game by carrying and placing noisey dogs. Is this lack of experience, or the lack of understanding that they are not doing anyone a favour by carrying a nosiey dog, excess control breakers, etc.
I don't know...??? I addressed this in the control breaker section...but in all-age I have not seen this rule abused ie. excess noise.

Peter