HRC Where is the game going (carried from High Points Dog thread)

[MAD MALLARD]

O.K. I have some thougths on this topic regarding Hunt Tests. THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION.
I agree with Lee, and I have to say running just as many American test as Canadian the last 2 years they are in far more trouble than we are. Last year I watched as a dog in Seasoned scalped 4-5 times on the way to a blind and the handler fought the judge and said that the dog was progressing to the blind. This was about 2 inches away from a fist fight at the awards banquet that night of the test.

Here is my observation, there are a number of people who do not want to face the fact that their dogs are either #1 not capable of performing the level of the work that they are trying to accomplish or #2 their dog is just not ready yet. I for one have swallowed my pride on a very generous test put on at Lake Ontario this year. The test was not a give away but it was not very difficult "if your dog was capable and ready". I failed that test misserably, so bad that I pulled my dog from the Sunday test. I accepted the fact that my dog was not ready.

What is happening is that people are not realizing that these are tests and you can't always pass...well you can but you shouldn't. Test are made to test a dogs ability there is nothing wrong with failing a test if you can see what it is that you need to work on. There are just too may people that fail to look at what it is that they need to work on and try to make excuses for why their dog did not succeed. Let me assure you in the states this is very clear, I observed dog there this year with incredible tallent that failed tests.

I hope the titles that our dogs have don't loose there credibility because I know that we work very hard for these titles and the dogs work even harder...But I have to agree that there is a very large chance that our titles are loosing credibilty.

[Anna Scott]

I agree with you but I think that the CKC test may be in just as much trouble. One of the things I think the UKC does well is offering the judges/handlers' seminars. More handlers should take advantage of these when they are offered. One thing they provide is some insight into the rule book. Not enough people in the game are reading these documents. Too many people think just because my dog has picked up all the "chickens" I
should pass. As Lee stated minor fault + minor faults quickly can add up to major faults.
Lee and Howard have been very generous with their time doing Q & A sessions for our GBHRC members. Even old crocks like me gain from their explanations. Scalloping, literal casts and making progress to blinds were one area that we spent some time on at our last session. Slipped whistles and cast refusals are another area I find that competitors really don't take into consideration when evaluating their dog work. Noise, I spoke to one fellow after a test about his dogs noise on line, his answer was I didn't realize my dog made any noise. Sometimes handlers are so focused on the mechanics of the test they forget to pay close attention to the dog's behaviour.
Being prepared for the level you are about to run is so important.There is no age limit on when your dog has to pass these tests so why do we try to rush them when training would be of better benefit to them. Evander didn't finish his HRCH till he was 6, we never did finish his master because our fucus shifted. It really didn't matter to me or the people that bought his puppies.
Both the CKC and UKC have standards that must be met to get a pass. It is important for handlers to know and understand these standards and for judges to make sure they are judging to them. Then maybe scenes like you wittnessed will become a thing of the past and the titles will retain their credibility.

[Kevin Hannah]

Many people see the failures through rose colored glasses, most times if you think back and honestly go over your dogs performance you will find that most of the time the judges are right. There may also be times when you feel like you got the shaft but I think in the long run you get just as many breaks along the way.

I believe that the HRC program and standards are higher here in region 1, is that a bad thing? Not really I don't think. I also run quite a few tests each year in region 2, my experience is that MANY region 1 handlers travel down and do very well at their tests. I also see many people travel up from region 2, some come up once and don't come back. Others go home and train and come back ready to run in this region and do fine.

The other time you see the glaring differences is if a club brings a judge in from another area, most are VERY suprised with the level of dog work.

Does this mean region 1 is doing it right and everyone else is wrong? I would like to think not but maybe we are.

[Misty Marsh]

There are some that see a test through rose colores glasses for sure, is it because they just feel that they derserve to go to the next series because they picked up the chickens or is it becuase they have not had the experience at the higher levels (master etc..) and have got through with multiple refusals etc in the past in the earlier levels? I've been judged with a very sharp pen before and have been carried when I almost feel ashamed to go on, so "yes" it all balences out in the end. I have talked to some serious HT people in the US and judging is very simmilar in the US in that certain regions are soft while others are very tough. It got to the point that the master national qualifiers were travelling to the softer areas to qualify untill they passed a bay law a couple years ago in which you had to qualify in your region. I don't see this as a HT only issue as I've seen it in the FT world also, and in some cases even worse when it's a larger trial, so for me it still comes down to clubs picking good judges that are tough, but fair and have a knowledge base to pull from.

[Jojoe]

..........

[2labs]

Lee I was not trying to steal the earlier thread of High point dogs , I will say I have alot of respect for the people who run field trails not saying that any other game is beneth the feild trailers. I will say though that I chose to run under the HRC banner for my own personal reason ,also regarding the standard of the different classes either you cut the mustard and meet the standard or you do not plane and simple what most handlers FAIL to see is what the judges see you sort of develope tunnel vision when your dog is running , yes there will always be people who will try to bend and twist the rules so their dog has a chance to win or get to the next part of the test. I was at GBHRC this year and Kevin and Mike did there job and tapped me on the shoulder had no issue with it thanked them for their time and left for home even though they invited me back to run the water but it was hot with no wind and it was time to go home. Someone mentioned about taking the handler seminar I have taken it 3 times and every time I learn something knew well worth it . One last thing always respect the judges they are the people who come a day or two ealier than us to provide the folks with what they came for ,they may not always be right but they are the judges .2labs

[LeeW]

I agree I ran hrc hunts for a long time and enjoyed every minute of it.My point was simply that in order to have other venues respect our titles (not that it matters ) we have to stop the ever lowering of the bar.

[Kevin Hannah]

My point was simply that in order to have other venues respect our titles (not that it matters ) we have to stop the ever lowering of the bar.

I agree lee

[3 black dogs]

There is a differance between lowering the standard and raising it to suit the judge. The HRC program has taught alot of people how to properly train thier dogs and instead of being happy the dogs are getting better the standard gets a little higher with every passing year.

Lee what was the HRC like when you first started running dogs in it? How did your first dog fair when you first got into the game any different from today?

I know I have come along way in learning about the dog game.

[North of 7]

The one ? I have that I have no idea of is in other doggy do's that are out there that have titles. Be it show ob ft or what ever else is out there.
What is the % rate of dogs that start and ones that complete. If the Hunt
tests games are not in the ball park I would think it is safe to say the
standards are to low or maybe to high.
Hope someone can answer this

[LeeW]

Well Chris my first dog was a dud. He was a good meat dog and training laboratory. When I started in the dog game there was no video tapes an only a few dog books out there that were not easy to get.
So a good friend of mine Grant we used to get together and fumble through doing more damage than good most of the time.
So along came dog number two I knew a little more but not as much as I thought and Bo was the dog I tried all new training methods on (poor guy).
So to make a long story short the dogs I got a long the way were better and I started to learn more thus my accomplishments became higher.
Back in the day I can remember at the end of the day only 1 or 2 no more than 5 were getting ribbons in finished at the end of the day.
The test were much different back then more imaginative test were being judged and the dogs were doing it .Was this good testing probably not but we were all learning.
We have cleaned up the funny tests and crazy stuff and this is what I’m talking about with the test being cleaned up to the point we are truly testing marking and memory we still have the people interpreting the rules in such a way that as long as there dog picks up the birds they feel they should pass.
I can remember that started dogs had to pick up the marks under the same standard as finished dogs .What I mean by this is that even started dogs had to go DIRECTLY to the AOF establish a hunt on there own and return with the bird not just get the bird.
I can remember in seasoned when we had to crawl on our bellies up to a pond with face paint on to sneak up on a few birds on the pond. Not go 10 yards on lead from the different stations of a seasoned test.
I can remember having quads in the grand .I can also remember grands where the dogs had to actually swim not just running water to keep the time down .I heard that the judges were only allowed 8 minutes per dog on the water tests how can we test a grand dog in 8 minutes.

Not all we did in the old days of HRC was good or even right but the bottom line is the dogs had to meet the standard we were not concerned with pass percentages now I have heard hunt committees ask judges to keep the pass percentages to a certain number this is not what we are about or should be about...

[Wayne Dibbley]

Lee,

Please don't misconstrue what I'm asking here. You know who I've spent time with and what types of dog's I've seen and really appreciate. I have an infinite appreciation for what top level performing retrievers are capable of.

Do you think that participating in field trials has impacted your view and expectations at the hunt test levels?

I know that my time away with field trial trainers and dogs DID affect my view and expectation of performance...in a very good way, but even I have difficulty discussing it concisely with Hunt Test friends.

Also, do you think that there is more a fluctuating of the bar rather than a lowering of it in hunt tests?

At Horicon Marsh, I saw some great tests, with tough/fair judging and only got one dog through. At Essex for example I thought your tests was tough but solid, and your judging tough/fair...at great risk I'd say many do not share my view...at Georgian Bay I thought the tests were across the board in terms of difficulty, and that two flights of judges appeared/were percieved to be judging quite differently.

Is it really possible to get the bar levelled in terms of judging?

Can it be possible that the bar will ever be level between judges and entrant expectation/perception?

This past year I HRCH'd River (1.5 year old black lab) and UH HRCH Delta (chessie), and assisted Larry Wood and HRCH Bubba.

It's can comfortably say we were at tests where we witnessed dogs pass that I didn't understand how, conversley I witnessed dogs fail that I felt should have passed.

Great discussion.

Wayne Dibbley
Next Level Retriever Training

[LeeW]

I Do understand what these animals are capable of but I also understand the rules that that hunt test are run under .With that being said you must remember that we as hunt test judges are restricted as to the distance we can put birds at. So we as judges rely on bird placement. I mean the average finished mark is about 80 yards there is no reason that a finished dog should not be able to navigate terrain changes hills wind water or diversions for no more that 80 yards on average.
I understand the philosophy of HRC and I believe that is what keeps me in touch with the game.
My expectations are The dog must show finished control the dog must go directly to the area of the fall establish a hunt on their own find the bird and return and deliver to hand .Do this on all marks and we have no problem this is in the rule book not my opinion but HRC's .

[MAD MALLARD]

Wayne, I have some thoughts

I feel that my involvement with Field Trial training, (which is how I primarily train my Hunt Test dog and is the game of choice for most of my training friends) has changed my view of expectations. However there are very few people who play the HT game and also the FT game. I know Lee and Howard do I will be this coming year and I am sure there are a few others but not many.

I think this is healthy for me and for most people who do both, however, I can see how this could become a problem if someone with the wrong perception was to start comparing the work of FT dogs to HT dogs and expecting a higher standard. I Agree with you 100% I think there has been an unleveling of the bar not a lowering. Lets take GB HT for example, the test were not easy by any stretch. The difference may have been the judging, however, I think the test had enough meat that the judges decisions were easy ones. From all the dogs that I watched run it was clear which one failed including ME:cheesy: . If those test were lowering the bar than I better go back to seasoned.

One comment that I do have is this...this year I followed the FT circuit as close as I possibly could for my own reasons which have nothing to do with HT. I did notice a trend in bird placement with FT that started to creep its way into the HT game this year. Coincedence or are we carrying some of the same concepts from one game to the other??????? Some of the tests that I saw in the FT game this year make me wonder if I will ever be capable of training a dog to that level. I am sure at the end of the day I will standing up there calling for the 450yrd memory bird but right now it looks like the road is long.

I think Lee has an excellent point regarding the people who complain about the test when they fail. If you failed it was becasue your dog could not do the work...GO train harder and work on your soft areas.

I have to add one more point, this is not a problem that only exists in the HT game. If a HT mark is set up and 80% of the field has to handle on the mark...you know there is going to be complaining....just like when you get the 450yrd memory bird in a quad set up in the open there is going to be people talking when only a few diog pick it up.

[Kevin Hannah]

Lets take GB HT for example, the test were not easy by any stretch. The difference may have been the judging, however, I think the test had enough meat that the judges decisions were easy ones. From all the dogs that I watched run it was clear which one failed including ME:cheesy: . If those test were lowering the bar than I better go back to seasoned.



I would agree with that completely. I had 2 dogs running in Howards flight as well. Lost 1 in the morning on the honor and the other in the afternoon, nothing to do with the test itself they just were not ready for that test plain and simple. Never complained to anyone about any of it, the 2 dogs ran well just had a few problems but I was happy with the way they ran and left knowing exactly where the dogs were it and what to work on fpr next spring. I liked the tests and thought they were tough but fair and the dogs either did the work or didn't, makes judging easy. The judging in my flight was very good, consistent and fair I thought. I didn't see any of the dogs running in the other flight so cannot really comment on the judging there so I won't. You sometimes hear lots of things but like we have said sometimes handlers see things through rose colored glasses.

[Sharon]

Amen Lee , to NOT lowering any standards in all areas of sporting dog field work testing.

Just had a guy yesterday complaining that his brace wasn't fair ( last Sept.!!)because the quail coveyed up ( flushing in groups) and flew like wild birds (not planted birds ).

Goodness me , we wouldn't want your dog to have to show his stuff on "real birds!"

Give me a break.

[stewart14]

Training is better, dogs are breed better. Does that mean the bar should be raised? No to lowering, no to raising. But with that being said and if it is true, then yes you are going to have more dogs pass then before. The judges make the call for the day and we live with their decision. As long as they judge consistanltly and fairly no one should have a beef. It is my experiance that the grounds make the test more then the test makes the test. 80 yards can be very difficult in one test and very easy in another. I believe judges prefer very chalenging grounds that allow dogs to pass or fail themselves not a sharp pencil. Just because a dog (HRC) comes out of seasoned on Saturday does not mean that dog can run finished on Sunday. That is where I think the lowering of the bar problem exists. The finished test should not be geared towards the dog coming out of seasoned, but towards the FINISHED dog running finished. This is not charity. don't take a seasoned dog to a finished test and expect to pass. Train harder, longer bring that dog up to a finishied standard then chellange the finished test. That is the problem I see with HRC, they think a seasoned dog should have a chance of passing finished. I have Grand experience and passes, and I feel the Grand is geared so a finished dog has a chance to pass instead of a GRAND dog passing the Grand.

[shawn]

I have been involved with the HRC for a long time and do not see where the bar is getting any lower. The STANDARD with we are to follow as a judge has raised in terms of distances,control and over all proformance.
You have to remember that the HRC game is not field trial and we do not run dog against dog here.

[quackaddict2]

well get all over me for this if ya want but here's how ive been seeing it

i don't see the stanard here in canada being lowered since ive been running tests at all.what i hear is alot of whinning from some individuals that the tests are to hard for their dogs here and they will run in the states in certain areas because the tests are generally easier to pass.

i have often heard from a slew of our american friends that our tests are tuffer as well as our judges and the word is if you go up to canada and can pass our setups you are ready for a grand

i don't really know cause ive never ran a finished test state side just a grand but i know there are a number of individuals who have headed down there so they could tittle their dogs

i personally like a challenging test set up by a tuff but fair team of judges i guess because i not only feel a sense of satisfaction when she goes out and drills it but also ive got me a huntin machine i can be proud of.and a dawg that can go all day digging birds up out of the messiest slews or back waters
a dog confident enuff to take my casts back 250-300 yds to pic up that cripple and hurry back and still have the gas and gumption to do it again

is this what we want,lets water down these tests so we can get any slug to pick up three short marks [and from what i hear two in some places] and a piddelly little blind

i personally need a lot more dog then that when head out to hunt some of the places my buds and i do

hey don't get me wrong,there is nothing wrong with people getting out and enjoying their dogs,training and heading to a test and giving it a go. heck some come away realizing that they have work to do [and like alot of us know training a good dog is work] and get out and git-er -done.

yet other seem to blame the set ups or judges and cry the tests need to be dummied down not the fact of their lack of training or the holes in their training for their non passes

heck it seems with some they deserve a pass because they showed up and payed the fee.maybe there should be a movement to skip the test all together and just pass out the ribbons:cheesy:

now i know some of yas want to tell me i should be running field trials[give me a break,like there's something wrong with striving for excellence within the HT game]and you know i would run FT if i could.but im tellin yas that the HRC here in canada is fine by me the way it is.it is a great program putting out some of the finest hunting dogs on this continent.that's what the program was intended to do what it should do and lets keep it that way

and one last note to you who think i'm to serious and i should remember this is suppose to be fun.well those of you that have trained with me or seen me at the test know no one has more fun then the quack [your a close second tony]

[Wayne Dibbley]

...we can designate a Can. HRCH which could denote title value just below a GRHRCH but above a US.HRCH...??...Or stretch the HRC blinds to 350 and call it a FTinished test?...add a 400 yard cripple (cause I'm shooting steel now whiner) test?? :1:

I balk at the geographic statement mostly because I saw some tests in the US that were as tough as the tests I saw here...maybe it isn't the norm, I don't have the statistics.

Do I want HRC to water it down or toughen it up? No like "Addict" I like it the way it is.

The question is how does the HRC level the bar in terms of delivery and application of the standard. It isn't the test's or their locations at issue, it's the wide variances from one test and it's judging to another.

Is the variance just something to live with? Or is it something as an organization HRC can improve on?

Sure often there's a lot of whining...but sometimes there are legitimate complaints too.

It serves no purpose to silence every single complaint or dissatisfied discussion with a "whiner" label.:boo: Even if some people deserve the bumper sticker to their forehead...

It doesn't strike me that every single discussion around HRC hunt test consistency is a whining issue.

Interestingly when I was in the US, I heard that Can. Field Trials are watered down, and that a US QAA dog could compete at our National.

Am I simply to buy that as a whole our Canadian HRC clubs just have a better grasp on the delivery of the HRC rule book - over our American counterparts - and/or that Canadian Field Trial clubs simply aren't able to put together trials with the substance of US Trials???:lame:

Canadian waterfowlers' need higher caliber retrievers than American waterfowlers' ??- that's funny! :cheesy:

What helpful/positive motive in either retriever sport is there for such geographic puffery?

"Thrilled to pass HRC tests anywhere, and impressed by QAA's, FTCH's, AFTCH's equally to FC's, and AFC's with the N's that go with them..." regards,

Wayne Dibbley

[MAD MALLARD]

Well put Wayne,

You are on the right track about the problem and can we do anything about it?? Who knows that answer???


IMO


This whole US test are easier is BULL S@&#^$. I have run test there the last 2 years........not because they are easier, because the canadian test are finished 2-3 weeks before the Americans and I personally do not like running test early in the year, just my preference. The test that I ran there had the same or similar pass rates as here in Cananda..heck last year I ran a seasoned test there where only 3 dogs passed..sound familiar.

After some good conversations this with our Yanke friends I blatently asked the question and got this answer. "the further south you go, the grounds are not as technical." This does not mean that the test are not as hard...maybe they are not. But it not the reason that I go down. The Ohio test that I go to every year are just as hard as the test I run in Canada.

Al, you are 100% correct I need a lot more hunting dog that what the hunt test game will test when I go out hunting....

Try lake hunting for divers and the dog has to make 12 retirves through 40-80 decoys swimming out into the wide open lake into no mans land. I need to challenge my dog in order to get the confidence to send her on a 200 yard cripple out in the lake so when she gets out there she sticks it out and chases down the bird even if it dives every time she goes to grab it. I hope the point I am making is understood, a lot of the complaints that you hear are from trainiers that play the hunt test game, however, do NOT hunt with their dogs. If you hunt with your dog even moderately you will come to realize that there are many situations that are more difficult than the Hunt Test scenarios that are presented to us at a weekend event.

YOU train to the degree that you feel you need to......and YOU live with the results of your training.

[quackaddict2]

well let me say sorry to frank if i in any way i made it seem you were heading state side seeking an easier route to tittle your dog

but if you read my post again you will see i stated that some areas there tend to run easier tests.i have heard nothing but good things about the clubs
you ran where you went in those regions.im sure there are many more

now saying that.when i first came into the hrc there was a number of individuals that confided to me that they were frustrated they couldn't get a pass up here and in some areas of the states they could easily get a pass.
watching there dogs run it seemed to me some of their dogs had the juice just needed more work but that didn't sit wrong with me as much as the dogs that imo just didn't have it and eventually after running many a test put four together and earned a tittle

now you said in your openning post that our tittles should mean something and you hope they don't loose crediblity

well in mho i would not purchase a dog based on a ped with solely hrc tittles in it. ive seen some of the smoke and mirrors

there are imho tremendous dogs out there holding solely a finished tittle.ive seen them work.that is what it would take me to purchase a pup from strictly HT tittles,if i saw the work the sire and dam were doing

that dog duece on the fowl pursuit 4 video is a tremendous animal and im pretty sure the only tittle he holds is an HRCH

now wanye i was expecting some colourful responces for sure.

cmon now,nobody is suggestting anything along the lines of your openning statement and is not worth any kind of rebutal,heck it's just down right insulting

i guess again you may of been offended like frank and all i can say again is that was clearly not my intention as you may see when you read my post back more carefully.but if so sorry

i guess in my feeble steel shootin brain i was trying to add a little insight of mine as to some of the source of the grumblings about the hrc particularly here in canada as to where my experience is

what the hell was i thinking that i may have an opinion as lame as you seem to think it is.sorry again

you know i keep reading that post back to me and i can't seem to find the part where i even remotely suggest that canadian waterfowlers need a better caliber of dog then US waterfowlers?????? i guess this ole lame brain is missing something[please point this one out for me]

i thought the question in franks original post was where is the hrc going?

i guessing because of what ive heard whats been said to me what ive observed that the way tests are conducted in other geographics does create issues for our judges here.there is pressure put on them to pass more dogs

still seems to me the hrc here has got it right.why,well as lame as it is a higher percentage of canadian dogs pass the grand.every american judge ive run under [3 in all] have told me they are amazed by the quality of our dogs and american friends have said to me if you can run in canada your ready for the grand and like i said some handlers heading else were to tittle.

no one here has suggested that every discussion arround the hrc table is a whining issue?sure there are legit complaints[like everythings perfect]

interestingly that i also hear that the ft game in the U.S. is a tuffer racket than that of canada.except ive only heard it from canadian handlers

im in no position to comment on that.im sure someone like dennis can give us the proper insight there

now i do not know of any judge that i have run under or marshaled for or observe set up any kind of a test that wasn't within the rule book perameters

everyone of them wanted every dog to pass there test short of having to lower there standards

we have a tremendous judging pool here and i hope that some don't get too fed up and move on like i hear

they are part of why i have the animal i have today

imho there is no need to even any bars

[Wayne Dibbley]

Hey Al, sorry for coming across in an insulting manner - was not my intention either, and you did not offend me with your post.

You "knew" there would be some "colourful" responding...I just couldn't resist some of the colour. I hated smilies until this board...

I agree with you that I want a dog to be competitive at the highest level, and maybe what needs to happen in order to "level" the bar is for some other areas testing to be elevated to meet ours "up here" ? That's what needs discussing, can we do anything about having one standard and such a wide interpretation of the type of work required to meet that standard..?

There's no doubt we turn out some awesome dog's - but I've also seen some slugs that I wouldn't want a pup out of make passes even at Canadian tests. They met the standard just not in the "style" I'd like personally...but that's the event - meet the standard = PASS.

I further agree with you that I wouldn't likely select a pup out of or based on HRCH title alone, but it provides value and information, certainly a more than average effort on the owner/handlers' part.

One thing you mentioned in your last post is a big unlevelling of the bar:

..."i guessing because of what ive heard whats been said to me what ive observed that the way tests are conducted in other geographics does create issues for our judges here.there is pressure put on them to pass more dogs"...

I'm not a judge so can't speak personally to that, but have heard it said that judges in other areas have been asked to deliver a certain % pass rate - that type of activity unquestionably lowers the value of the titling - there's a standard to be met, dog meets it he passes, dog doesn't he fails...

That being said, what factors are at play to cause such big differences geographically? Wouldn't the judges seminars make the testing of the standard(s) more consistent? Could the dog's in one geographic region simply be repeatedly and consistently more adequately trained/prepared than another? Are the actual tests that different, or is the judging of similar test performances so different?

How as an organization, and from within our local clubs, can we more appropriately manage expectations? That's what I"m wondering, I'm not sure it's even possible, I'm just struggling to believe that it boils down to tests in geographic regions being regularly so much easier, that handlers from those regions area are completely blind sided?

Like you, when I get to a test that show's me something a dog wasn't ready or sufficient in, it makes me want to get home and get back to work.

The topic is a challenging discussion, but if there are answer's I think they are the key to "levelling" the bar - at least levelling participant expectations at HRC events.

rambling regards,

Wayne Dibbley

[MAD MALLARD]

I was not offended by your post 1 bit. My reply was not aimed at you. I was merely speak as a participant in both Canada and the States. I agree I have heard that the tests further south my be easier but have no proof. I guess my point is that we can not make a blanket statement about U.S. test. In some areas they may be more leinient, however, in Ohio where I have run the last 2 years the test have been equally as difficult as the Can. test.

So are the test easier in the states I say NO based on my experience in the States. Maybe someone who has run test further south than I have can add some insight to this conversation. Last year I ran Ohio River HRC this was run on grounds very close to the Kentucky border. This year I ran it again and the grounds were about 2 hours drive north of where they were last year. Very different grounds. There must some others on the forum that have run down in the states chime in and give us you opinion.

I agree 100% that the Americans speak very highly of our dogs...and for good reason....but I think that has to do with training not testing. Like I have said before at the hunt test that I have been to in the U.S. I have seen some really nice dogs.....that appear to be lacking good training. This may be the difference.

[wilks kennels]

hey quack its the big fellow down here on the pond.the pond is froze over but the training still going hard.had a great summer and alot of fun getting to play with these young dogs and us old handlers.i have seen alot of dogs in my time. and the breed of dog we have today are second to none.the dogs of today have such ability to learn its uncanny.but they still have to be taught the concept of retrieving.the thing i think the handlers of today try to rely on there dog to be a retriever.only one problem this dog only knows what you have taught it.there is alot of homework that needs to be done threw the week before you head out with your buddys to train on the weekend oh did i use the word train or should have i used the word test your dog.train your dog and use those weekends to put your dog in ht atmospher but dont forget to keep training the whole time your there and take out of the training concept and train to your ability and your dogs ability.all good things come with time.as a handler your dog reflects your ability to teach it the concept of retrieving and have fun doing it remember when you go to the hunts use your ability and what you have taught your dog to challenge the test you are competing in weither it be started seasoned or finished.the bottom line is would you hunt over this dog at the end of the day and as a judge this is what you need to ask your self.the judges i have met in the hrc are mainly hunters and they should use there past hunting experience to set up a hunting concept that you could even have encountered yourself not try to out do what you saw the weekend before.so keep training and have fun and get out there and challenge the hunt test and the concept the judges have set up to challenge you and your dog.and learn from it .
hunt smart hunt with a trained retriever heading back out to train

[Scott Rumble]

Awesome topic. Just got back from Nebraska so I am just catching up. Deuce only has a HR title as far as I know. I have hunted with Stahl and Deuce on a few occasions and he is a machine for sure. I have hunted with a couple HRCH dogs in the States that just didn't have it. I hunted my dog HRCH Belle on a recent hunt with the folks from Dakota Decoy and to say they were impressed was an understatement. She made some long retrieves in some cold weather and some current that saved me getting out of the warm blind. I have travelled and run tests in the US and I can say the ones I have been at were just as tuff then the ones here in Canada. I think it all depends on the grounds that are available. I have witnessed tests be changed from one flight to another which I think shouldn't happen. Run the test the way it was set up. I have also helped at a few tests and was incharge of the decoy placement. Man that was fun and I screwed alot of dogs up because they just weren't use to seeing 10 dozen decoys set up, however the dogs that had been hunted new the deal. HRC is for hunteres by hunters and I just want to throw this out there, I have never hunted geese with 6 decoys and never will and when I hit the ducks it is a minimum of 4 dozen floaters. I have ran as many as 100 goose floaters and 100 duck floaters and I expect my dog to work just as if there were 2 decoys out. I train for this and set up large decoy spreads in the summer so my dogs are ready for the real deal. I have done some guiding and have witnessed clients dogs just get totally lost when the decoy numbers are increased. I can first hand say I have saw some well titled dogs be lost in the field but absolutely walk through any test you wanted to set up. I still run tests but to me the dog that is all heart and all it wants to do is hunt is very important to me. Train, train, train, it pays off. I also expose my dogs to everything I may encounter in the field and marsh. Should HRC lower the bar NO WAY Should the standard be level across the board YES.

Get after them the season is still open and the birds are flying.

[fjnichols]

What is a HRC?? No one West of Ont. Has ever heard of them. Must be some new upstart program.:1: ( well maybe BC knows what they are.)

[LET'M RUN]

Wow, after the Grand and a long hunting season, I have missed out on the fun of this site, right Al. Hehehe. Just my two cents into this equation. I have to agree with Lee 100%. When I went through the Season level tests and seen all the lead work between stations it did not seem to equal the level. I believe a good HR dog should be steady. Then came the finished level and for the most part I have seen many good tests down south for instance, Paul Ramponi test in the spring at high flyers where I saw a handler go out before he even put a seat on the pail for lack of control. I have seen dogs pass that were so vocal or lack of control that I would shoot them if I was in a duck blind with them. I agree with Al that the tests are fair and just for most part in Canada and agree with Frank and Kevin about the U.S. hunt tests. I was talking to Greg Moffat about these situations in HRC on the weekend and how we could improve the HRC in the future. Is it time for a Higher Title for the Grand dog that runs more than two times a year? Or are we going to make the HRCH title tougher to achieve. These are the questions I believe as the HRC moves forward in the coming years to keep it as the top Hunter Retriever Trial of North America. It is great to see we are talking about HRC and trying to make it better just like our dogs " CONCIEVED BY HUNTERS FOR HUNTERS" HRC:worms:

Tony