Time For Change?

[jdbritt01]

Are CKC hunt tests for our pointing breeds in need of some changes. What can the breed clubs do (within the rules of the CKC) to encourage participation and improve the experience for for all involved. I know many of you have ideas. Lets hear some of them.

[Sharon]

I don't know where you are from , but I'm speaking of Ontario.

Trials:

In Ontario there are no grounds. You need a very large area for a trial.
Hullet weekends are filled with American Field trials .

I remember years ago we had trials put on by the Brittany Club and the GSP Club. The GSP Club is extinct and the Brittany club only puts on tests now..

They died in Ontario for several reasons.
One was the difficulty in getting trial judges.
One was the fact that so few have horses.
The older members got burnt out and younger ones didn't assume leadership.75 year old guys are still doing the brunt of the work to keep things going.

I think the day of trials is past. It's a struggle to keep the American Field clubs going too. We are a shadow of what we used to be.
Fortunately Michigan has trials every weekend.

Tests

There are still good, filled up all weekend tests for pointing breeds - Brittany Club, GSP Club of Canada,
Vizsla Club, Ontario All Pointing Breed Club all put on good tests.

Grounds are an increasing problem.
I hear Luther is not allowing anymore off hunting season activity ( no more planted pheasants either),so that will be interesting as this is where most tests are held. Vandemeer's is sold now so it's unlikely it will be available for tests.

Younger folk aren't getting involved in judging seminars. Most judges are much older.
Finding judges discourages club leaders too.

Just my 2cents worth.

What can the breed clubs do?

Work with the new dog owners to help them get from FDJr. to FD. Many drop out at this point.
Get some members to take the judges' seminar.

I don't do tests anymore but I always thought the experience was great!

I am dead against lowering the standards to get more participants. Please!

[jdbritt01]

I am a member of the BSCO and judge both here in Ontario and also AKC tests . I judge all the above mentioned tests every year. You make a good point about bringing in younger judges. I personally have held both handling clinics and training clinics for beginners. Too many people do drop out after FDJ and never continue. Why.

[Sharon]

I can't say for sure.

It's the same in the American Field going from Derby to Shooting Dog.
Very little formal training is required for FDJr. jmo
Specific training ( maybe too much),is needed for FD ( as you know). Many owners don't know what to do..

More time is needed for FD training and many won't put the time in.

Maybe there needs to be a level between FDJr and FD. ( Our derbies aren't solidly broke for 2+ years.)
I wish there was between Derby and Shooting Dog. We lose lots of people between those two.

In Am. Field, I know that some dogs that do well in Derby , don't have what it takes to be a Shooting Dog. Many Shooting Dogs don't have what it takes to be a Champion. I assume this is the same for test dogs.

Just for fun I've included a picture of a 10 month old ( Uplander's Pocahontas) who has it all but still required experienced training to get where he is.

PS I am against giving placements in tests. I think that discourages the "losers". Tests were never meant to be competitive.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g132/lee460/Pokey.jpg

PS I remember my first FDJR test. I forgot to shoot and walked off the field. LOL The judge called me back to shoot over my dog. Very nice judge.

How are the Wilshires? We used to trial together. Very fine people who have contributed a LOT to the sport.

[jdbritt01]

Nice looking dog. Uplander has always been a force in the dog world. His depth of knowledge and willingness to share it has been a great benefit to me personally as well as many others. Wilshires are still working dogs and contributing to the sport. For many years they have been strong supporters of the gun dog scene and I hope they continue. Your feedback is appreciated. If you show up at a test look me up. Always happy to meet active supporters of our sport.

[cdnvizsla]

Does the CKC actually want younger judges?

After being chased for years to judge CKC, I finally gave in and applied and was told they would accept my NAVHDA judge status after receiving confirmation from NAVDA and make me a CKC judge.
NAVHDA forwarded my qualifications and list of dogs judged to the CKC but I was then advised that the CKC field rep in my region said they no longer made exceptions and that I would have to apprentice to judge CKC.
:lame:

Well after judging several hundred dogs in NAVHDA from Maine to California and all points in between I have no interest in apprenticing, so the CKC has given me an out so I dont have to judge CKC and I can limit my schedule to the 6 to 7 weekends a year I already judge in NAVHDA.

[jdbritt01]

I would like to see a reciprocal agreement between NAVHDA and the CKC. I have also judged my share of dogs but would not be recognized by NAVHDA. You would be a fine addition to the CKC judging staff and I have always valued your opinion on my dogs. It's too bad politics gets in the way of our sport. I am currently having an unrelated battle with the CKC and am getting tired of banging my head against a wall. Hope to see you gunning in the spring. We do what we can.

[cdnvizsla]

The CKC has waived their requirements in the past for field judges, however
I cant see NAVHDA making that cancession since they place a number of restrictions and conditions on judges to maintain their status.
Judges must qualify a UT dog before they are considered for approval, we must run a dog every three years and attend a judges clinic every three years.
NAVHDA's apprentice program is much more structured then the CKC as well, to ensure a level of consistency in the judging that isnt seen elsewhere in the dog world.

[Sharon]

Does the CKC actually want younger judges?

After being chased for years to judge CKC, I finally gave in and applied and was told they would accept my NAVHDA judge status after receiving confirmation from NAVDA and make me a CKC judge.
NAVHDA forwarded my qualifications and list of dogs judged to the CKC but I was then advised that the CKC field rep in my region said they no longer made exceptions and that I would have to apprentice to judge CKC.
:lame:

Well after judging several hundred dogs in NAVHDA from Maine to California and all points in between I have no interest in apprenticing, so the CKC has given me an out so I dont have to judge CKC and I can limit my schedule to the 6 to 7 weekends a year I already judge in NAVHDA.

That is pathetic.

[Sharon]

The CKC has waived their requirements in the past for field judges, however
I cant see NAVHDA making that cancession since they place a number of restrictions and conditions on judges to maintain their status.
Judges must qualify a UT dog before they are considered for approval, we must run a dog every three years and attend a judges clinic every three years.
NAVHDA's apprentice program is much more structured then the CKC as well, to ensure a level of consistency in the judging that isnt seen elsewhere in the dog world.


Sounds like a great program for ensuring judging follows the standards exactly.
It is my impression though that there are a LOT fewer NAVDHA tests then CKC tests and trials.
We don't have enough judges to choose from now. Your standards for judges would make the problem even greater - even though you have a great programme and I'd like to see those standards for CKC judges.

It's a very serious problem with American Field Trials in Ontario. We have to resort to local club member judges - whoever is available and agrees not to run their dogs.
When you use local folk who have a history with the membership, the arguments/fights are common.
We do pick excellent judges from the States for all Championships.

................................

JDBrit :
I talked to the head of an Official Canada Club President for a pointing breed ( no one on here) about having another go at CKC Field Trials for Pointing Breeds in Ontario. I said I would be interested in helping to get it going again. She said, " Just leave it. Things are going fine now with just tests. I don't want to see those start up again." 0

[cdnvizsla]

Sharon, there are considerably more NAVHDA tests then there are CKC trials (was well over 200 tests in 2008).
NAVHDA is an international organization and tests are run through out North America.
I had a relatively light schedule this year but I till judged 6 weekends in Ontario, New York, Pennsylvania, and Alberta.
I had to turn down several others because my work schedule wouldnt allow me to travel.
I can tell you that no matter where I judge or with whomever I judge we are all on the same page because we are all trained with in the same system.
NAVHDA has an out of region requirement as well, so that at least one of the 3 judges (there are 153 NAVHDA Judges) must be from out of the region so that there is an outside set of eyes as well.

[jdbritt01]

Having run dogs in NAVHDA,CKC and AKC I would have to say that the level of judging is not much different.
Comparing the number of NAVHDA tests across North America to hunt tests across North America (CKC and AKC) would be more fair and NAVHDA would lose that one. CKC and AKC are virtually the same test. These numbers mean nothing to most of us who will not travel coast to coast to test our dogs.

Sharon. If you are interested in starting up CKC field trials and are willing to help the inexperienced my club may be able to help you. It has been a long time since we held a trial and I would be willing to present the idea to the rest of the executive. Volunteers should not be a problem but experience is. PM me if you are interested.

[Big Bird]

JD

You are correct that there is absolutely no young support for the hunting dog programs. Lack of parental support to get their children interested has had little influence. We must begin to face it that hunting, as we knew it 40 years ago has changed. Lack of rural support, loss of game, habitant, and access to properties, and rigid requirements for licensing and gun ownership has made our hobby a full time effort. Society has changed, where the metropolitan dweller only believes the meat comes from the deli, and animals must be persevered and not inhumanly treated.

Today, our hobby of testing dogs to improve, and promote the breed(s) has a limited following. Entry-level tests have a high level of interest and entries. Senior tests loose on the entries, do to lack of dedication of the handler, inferior performance by the dag , but more over a owner that does not hunt and is not into finishing the dog for its intended purpose.Those that do not hunt are "fanciers" that show up at a test to see their next little darling point a bird and receive a ribbon or prize and leave. They leave with bragging rights of how great their dog is. .

Have they bettered the breed? If their breeder has conscientiously evaluated the scores and related to future breeding then, possible so they have improved the breed. By merely purchasing a puppy from a breeder that has placed effort into improving the breed they have promoted the breed to the breeders requirements. I rationalize that is why we sponsor tests, to have these folks amuse themselves, and support the club, but more over to assist in the betterment of the breed.

Having different organizations to have dogs tested allows opinions to be versed on what are the exact best characteristics to be amplified in a dog. Some like the CKC program; others prefer the NAVHDA program, others like trials, the list goes on. All programs have their virtues, but it boils down to the same individuals supporting different programs, with various organizations, with the one common objective: better the breed. They just got their results a different way.

I have said that we need to get the testing clubs together, share the resources, training times, test programs, dates, sponsors and communication. We belong to similar groups but instead of attending two or three meetings/tests a month we could attend one. Administration on the clubs is thin as well as membership.

Judges supply the creditability to test programs. The quality of the judges training, experience and ability to apply to a test for each program needs to be expanded, and or maintained. Grand fathering, judges from one test program to another is not a solution, and would likely make the program worse just on credibility. A depressing fact is usually that the judges are more administratively involved in the programs because of their interest in the hobby. They are serving double duty to support a program(s).

Resources for test sites are also diminishing. Some programs require specific needs to perform the test and sponsoring a test that will encourage participants, spectators requires even additional resources. One administrative group, with a common mission, broken to small groups to amplify the message is needed to lobby agencies for the need for testing support in the form of grounds, sponsorship, and political support.

Our mission is to improve the breed. Lets get together while we still can!

[cdnvizsla]

The number of tests in CKC and AKC is misleading as well since it takes multiple legs before multiple judges to get a title.
NAVHDA you are judged by 3 judges each test and can qualify at each test.

As far as the standard of judging goes, well I will leave that one alone but you know where I stand on that one JD, there are some good CKC judges and then here are some other ones....

Politics play way to big a role in CKC and AKC, as a NAVHDA judge I am not even allowed to ask where a dog came from until after the test scores are read.

[Sharon]

Having run dogs in NAVHDA,CKC and AKC I would have to say that the level of judging is not much different.
Comparing the number of NAVHDA tests across North America to hunt tests across North America (CKC and AKC) would be more fair and NAVHDA would lose that one. CKC and AKC are virtually the same test. These numbers mean nothing to most of us who will not travel coast to coast to test our dogs.

Sharon. If you are interested in starting up CKC field trials and are willing to help the inexperienced my club may be able to help you. It has been a long time since we held a trial and I would be willing to present the idea to the rest of the executive. Volunteers should not be a problem but experience is. PM me if you are interested.

I hear you , but the CKC doesn't want to have trials. You and I would not meet their criteria even if they did want them - which they don't. :)

PS Very well said Big Bird.

[Vindalbakken]

I am not sure how you get that the CKC does not want trials. The problem lies with the members of the CKC pointing dog clubs. Why don't they want to organize and hold trials? I would hazard a guess that the answer lies somewhere in the same reason why there are so few entries at the MH level in the tests that are held. Few people want to train their dog to the level required and now that you can get ribbons and letters without it they are very happy not to.

Anyway, someone there has some aeroplan miles? Get me down there and I will judge a trial for you folks to help start something.

[jdbritt01]

I agree with vindalbakken. The pointing dog clubs are the ones who should hold the trials. I could likely get my club to try it, but I am a hunt test judge. If someone would be willing to give me some help with the set up and running and finding of judges I would be willing to give it a try.

[Sharon]

I am not sure how you get that the CKC does not want trials. The problem lies with the members of the CKC pointing dog clubs. Why don't they want to organize and hold trials? I would hazard a guess that the answer lies somewhere in the same reason why there are so few entries at the MH level in the tests that are held. Few people want to train their dog to the level required and now that you can get ribbons and letters without it they are very happy not to.

Anyway, someone there has some aeroplan miles? Get me down there and I will judge a trial for you folks to help start something.

.................................................. .................

I got it by talking to the National Breed Club - GSP to see what I could get going and being told to "leave well enough alone.":hand: After that I switched to setters and the American Field.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g132/lee460/00970011.jpg

CH Stonefree
handler/trainer Mike Tracy

Ontario Shooting Dog Champion 2007

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g132/lee460/00320012-1-1-2.jpg

(brag) Uplander's Little Lady
handler/trainer Sharon

Ontario Derby Dog of the Year
2006-2007

** You have to win a Championship to be called a Champion. You can become Dog of the Year by accumulating placements ( 4 placements per stake if 4 dogs do the job). The judge can say "No placements." if he feels no dog earned the spot.

PS The major drawback for CKC trialsis grounds. One limited area in Ontario and a second which is monopolized by the AF folk. Test are run on "small" areas of land which would not be sufficient for a trial.This is Ontario folks , not out West.

No problem with judges as several of the American Field partipants used to judge pointing breed hunt tests.
Participants is a problem as the majority of people prefer tests where if you meet the standard you get a certificate/points instead of trials which are based on competition - may the best dog win and you might never win.

[Vindalbakken]

.................................................. .................

I got it by talking to the National Breed Club - GSP to see what I could get going and being told to "leave well enough alone.":hand: After that I switched to setters and the American Field.

You talked to a SHOW club about holding a field trial - geez louise :). The CKC has no problem with clubs holding field trials - but the clubs have to hold them. There is the problem.

Grounds can be a problem. Even out west where land is abundant you need someone in the club who has a contact with the landowners and then is willing to use their contact to garner access to the land. But one time my club gained access to some new grounds by going out and doing cold calls - on the third one we forged a wonderful new relationship with a landowner and some premium property.

[Sharon]

No I didn't talk to a show club. ( You do a lot of assuming.) I talked to the person in charge of GSP Test/Trials for Canada.

There are 3 small pointing breed clubs in Ontario - Brittany Club, Vizsla Club and the OAPBC, no GSP club anymore. Two of these clubs had their grounds closed in May. They are hanging on to just hold tests.

[jdbritt01]

There seems to be no response to my offer to try to have a trial so back to hunt tests. The BSCO will be holding hunt tests this year, both spring and fall, and are also thinking of holding handler and training clinics again this year. The small clinics we have had the last couple of years had a good turnout and participants seemed very positive about them. Have fun with your dogs and I hope to be judging some of them in the upcoming year.

[Sharon]

I would help you if I could but I am up to my eyeballs with American Field work - statistician, have to keep all trophies up to date, Dog of the Year recorder. etc.

I'm sorry.
The Wilshires used to run great trials. have you talked to them?

[Vindalbakken]

Where's Maverick. He must belong to a club out there.

[Sharon]

He and his trainer participate in the States - AKC. His dog and offspring have been doing very well.

[Vindalbakken]

I have seen the postings of his wins. Just saying that there are folks out there who have dogs that trial - why not get something together at home. We have a few folks here who have been very successful for many years stateside - they are some of the biggest supporters of the game here in Alberta and Saskatchewan.