Breeders and DNA Copied from "my DK emma is pregnant" thread

[BdBHunts]

Congratulation on the breeding. Hopefully you get some black Kurzhaars, I know of some people here that are intersted in the solid black dogs.

A lot of people take pictures to prove the sire for different breeds and the breed warden for the DK and DD clubs must witness the mating. There has been funny business before and that is why people DNA their dogs too.

[emma]

Congratulation on the breeding. Hopefully you get some black Kurzhaars, I know of some people here that are intersted in the solid black dogs.

A lot of people take pictures to prove the sire for different breeds and the breed warden for the DK and DD clubs must witness the mating. There has been funny business before and that is why people DNA their dogs too.

Dear, perhaps, i think of the reaction of the poster Labber, there is some difference in the feeling and behaviour here in canada and in germany. in germany there is nothing unusual with such a pic. but here it seems to be not proper.

yes- we do also such pics to proove the sire of the dame.

is such a pic for you in canadian forum lewd or sexual improber?

Greeting madonna

[BdBHunts]

emma I have seen pictures posted like that for terrier breedings as well. Most people take the breeders word that the correct sire and bitch are used in the breedings but sometimes it is not always like that. I see no problem with the picture and I think it is only going to help the breeder protect their reputation.

[TK'S]

How can this be proof of a breeding where the next day you could use another stud. I know that they could tell with dna but not with pic. Terry

[BdBHunts]

How can this be proof of a breeding where the next day you could use another stud. I know that they could tell with dna but not with pic. Terry

You may be correct but trust is important. In the DK and DD clubs a breed warden must witness the breedings.

[emma]

How can this be proof of a breeding where the next day you could use another stud. I know that they could tell with dna but not with pic. Terry


but you are right! it would be quite interessting to have some dna tests! Greeting madonna

[Sharon]

My DK Emma is pregnant and we will have pups midths of januar in germany!
if our Lord likes it and we live.... Because: nothing is in our hands! Greeting madonna
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7121/homewurf055tx3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Emma alias Baghiravon der Königsleite, DK, D1,S1,BTR, HN, LN, Saujagernachweis, Brauchbarkeitsprüfung FW: V
Donner von der Himmelsleiter D1,S1,VGP1 , VSwP 20/2, VSwP40/1a, BTR, HN, Sichtlaut, FW: sg

Emma is the half sister of the sensationell kleemann winner 2008 Annabelle von der Königsleite
Donner is the full brother of Kleemannsieger Deichgraf von der Himmelsleiter

Oh my goodness. More information then I need.:)
Not really proof as the dog could mate with someone else to-morrow , secretly with no camera.:)

Every American Field dog has to be DNA'd before any Championship win is recognized.

This is because of problems in the past where someone said their pups were from a sire that they weren't from.

[TK'S]

Question 1- Who does the DNA 2- If it is the breeder or his Vet big ?
If the kennel has 2 dogs that could be brothers the one that has won a Ch trial but does not have a good sperm count . In comes dog #2 the kennel does the DNA on him and they breed the heck out of him or collect him and the kennel is making tons of money. Where there is big money there will be corruption. Terry

[Sharon]

Not sure i understand what you are saying.

The vet does the DNA.

Every animals DNA is different - brother or not - so the father and mother of the pups would be a for sure thing.

Maybe I don't understand what you are saying.

PS In the big scene that happened that brought on DNA testing, that is exactly what happened.

A guy ( who will remain nameless) couldn't use the CH because of low sperm count (too much marijuana :) ) so used the winless brother. When caught ( talked too much) the CH wins by the pups were disallowed - not properly registered.

Of course he said, ' The brother must have jumped the fence." LOL

[BdBHunts]

A guy ( who will remain nameless)

Are the initials F.M.?

[TK'S]

Sharron what Iam saying is where there is money there will be cheating or at least trying and they will find a way to get around it.

[Sharon]

You are absolutely right but the Field does the best they can.

Yes those are the initials. Sad because he produced a fine line of pointers and now he has been banned and called a cheater.

** A guy had fudged the paperwork on a dog I bought once. paperwork said the dog was two when it was three. We did great in the Derby stakes until it all came out and all the dogs wins were rescinded. Everyone told me to sue the guy but I figured losing your right to register dogs was enough of a punishment.

Of course you know why so many pups are born in January don't you? :) Gives them an extra year of Derby as the criteria is Jan. - Jan. for 2 years. Any time before Jan. and you lose a half a season.

I now have an honest breeder with integrity. If pup is born in Dec. it's born in Dec.Age is right. health clearances are right, parents are correct.

The new scam is using a tracking collar that has weight to it (Astro). Dog thinks it's an electric collar. That model has now been banned.

I was braced with a guy once who seemed to take his hat off and wipe his brow a lot. After a while, the judge said, "Don't take your hat off!!" Judge was smart.
The guy was moving it around when the dog was on point to make the dog think he was going to hit him.( We placed;that guy didn't.") LOL

Some cheaters will have their scout carry a bird in his jacket and throw it out when he's out of view ,for the dog that hasn't found his own bird yet.

Cheaters win sometimes but they don't have the respect of the club members . I'd rather have the satisfaction that comes from winning fairly based on my dog's talent.

Nice talking to you Terry. Hope you have a good year of health .

[Vindalbakken]

PS In the big scene that happened that brought on DNA testing, that is exactly what happened.

A guy ( who will remain nameless) couldn't use the CH because of low sperm count (too much marijuana :) ) so used the winless brother. When caught ( talked too much) the CH wins by the pups were disallowed - not properly registered.

Of course he said, ' The brother must have jumped the fence." LOL

As I understood the situation, the dog that was caught on DNA after winning a CH was not as you indicate. The DNA on the sire matched, but the DNA on the dam did not. It was not an inhouse breeding, the dam had been sent to the kennel for breeding by someone else. The outside kennel was able to immediately provide the proper dam for the litter. The owner of the sire (the nameless one) refused to admit any wrongdoing and refused to pay the fine and costs of repairing paperwork (which was substantial as the dog in question had already been used substantially as a sire). He was banned for life. The owner of the dam is still in business.

[Sharon]

Goes to show you. You should never repeat what you hear. :)

[Kevin Hannah]

Copied these posts here as requested by a member to continue the discussion here.

Kevin

[Sharon]

had this bookmarked and also received a link from vindalbakken:

http://www.americanfield.com/Pages/DNA&FDSB.html

[BdBHunts]

There is no way in the world that all breedings, whatever bred, have been on the up and up.

The big problem in AF, as I understand it, is that the person in question was not part of the "Old boys club" and the establishment and they didn't like the way he operated, a bit of a redneck or cowboy attitude. They were out to get him and they did, it seems in part with the help of the owner of Wiggins Dash. Kind of a setup by the looks of it.

[Vindalbakken]

The National Amateur Chicken Championship is one of the most prestigious trials on the circuit. Check out this link for a possible motive to "purge" the competitor pool. http://www.region14aftca.com/region14/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemid=34

Of course he could have just paid the money and accepted that every dog of his breeding would require DNA before entry to a stake where everyone else only needed it if they won.

[BdBHunts]

He was winning a lot of with his dogs and others were to, jealousy can be ugly. He breeds some of, it not the best, dogs out there, I believe this years Nat CH is down from his dogs.

If he did pay he would be admitting wrong when he knew there was a lot more cheating going on by others, it was probably a pride thing that kept him from doing so. Why admit guilt when everyone else is doing the same thing? That is what I am thinking. I am not condoning him, but he had a tremendous impact on the Pointer breed.

[Vindalbakken]

If he did pay he would be admitting wrong when he knew there was a lot more cheating going on by others, it was probably a pride thing that kept him from doing so. Why admit guilt when everyone else is doing the same thing? That is what I am thinking.

So, your opinion is that the system is rampant with wrongdoing? Come on. Jealousy is a terrible thing.

How about: If he did pay he would be admitting wrong when he knew there was nothing improper about the way he had conducted business in this affair. The additional ruling, over and above the published sanctions, to assume he was guilty on every breeding conducted until proven innocent by DNA was particularly onerous.

Since most registering bodies have the same published rules, I would ask what mechanism does the owner of a stud for hire use to verify the authenticity of the dam sent to him for breeding?

[Sharon]

I believe this years Nat CH is down from his dogs.



5 dogs nominated in 2004 - 2 dogs nominated in 2007 - 2 dogs nominated in 2008

[Vindalbakken]

I believe this years Nat CH is down from his dogs.

Whippoorwill is a pretty well established kennel name in it's own right.
There will be dogs in the winners circle with the Millers prefix in their pedigrees for years to come.
Dogs with the Millers prefix will soon no longer be running anywhere, since none have been produced in the past 4 years and many of the young ones were simply pulled out since the cost of doing DNA testing and re-registering (or simply registering) was an additional hassle.

[BdBHunts]

So, your opinion is that the system is rampant with wrongdoing? Come on. Jealousy is a terrible thing.

I don't think it is rampant, but there was funny business going on somewhere. There is a lot of money and prestige at stake. I am not jealous at all if that is what you are inferring.


How about: If he did pay he would be admitting wrong when he knew there was nothing improper about the way he had conducted business in this affair. The additional ruling, over and above the published sanctions, to assume he was guilty on every breeding conducted until proven innocent by DNA was particularly onerous.

I believe I understand what you are saying and seem to agree with you.


Since most registering bodies have the same published rules, I would ask what mechanism does the owner of a stud for hire use to verify the authenticity of the dam sent to him for breeding?

A while ago a man's word was enough but not anymore it seems, I don't know what to use. Microchipping or DNA is the means as I see it to confirm the dam with DNA being the most accurate. I have talked to breeders in different genres of dogs and sometimes the champs can't pass it on and a brother was used. If you look at dogs inducted to the Bird Dog Hall of Fame some were not big winners but there offspring were and that is the reason they are inducted. The abilty to pass on good genes, no matter what species of animal, is the important factor.

P.S. DNA testing is only good if there is dogs alive to test.

A link with Whippoorwill Wild Again's ped listed.
http://stinnettskennels.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Pedigreefor_katie_litter_1.126170227.pdf

[emma]

Emma on her 54. day! Greeting madonna
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/9119/schwangertraechtiglh2.jpg

[Sharon]

Emma on her 54. day! Greeting madonna
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/9119/schwangertraechtiglh2.jpg


I think you meant to put this in your classified thread Emma. Nice looking dog,

[puphood1]

As I understood the situation, the dog that was caught on DNA after winning a CH was not as you indicate. The DNA on the sire matched, but the DNA on the dam did not. It was not an inhouse breeding, the dam had been sent to the kennel for breeding by someone else. The outside kennel was able to immediately provide the proper dam for the litter. The owner of the sire (the nameless one) refused to admit any wrongdoing and refused to pay the fine and costs of repairing paperwork (which was substantial as the dog in question had already been used substantially as a sire). He was banned for life. The owner of the dam is still in business.
This is basically correct and so why should some one who 's stud dog being used on someone elses bitch have to be held accountable for the integrity of that bitchs reg. That was the argument put forth by Ferral and I am not affaid to use his name. He could not know the real genetics of a bitch that arrives for breeding just that his stud dog breed some bitch that day.
The winning dog in question had a full brother owned by the same people win a Ch. earlier and was certified by DNA prior to getting its CH. and thats a whole different story in its self that those owners have.
DNA can and is fiddled with in many ways in a dogs reg. today mainly because not all dogs have to be DNA'd. As some one else posted if there is a way to cheat someone will do it.
Trial dogs ages are manipulated by breeders not only by the month to make him/her a spring derby as apposed to a fall derby but holding back for one complete year before reg. a litter. The list of cheating goes on. The Field could if it really wanted to clean up reg. if it wanted but it has choosen not to for its own reasons.............puphood1

[BdBHunts]

I am looking at getting a heavy breed Miller dog.

[Sharon]

I know of a 2 year old linebred Miller female for sale. Works too close for trials.

[puphood1]

I am looking at getting a heavy breed Miller dog.
Though there is not any F.Miller dogs reg. any more there are lots of Miller get out there and in particular in KY.
You don't need a direct Miller dog any ways as Ferrel used to buy lots of his dogs from other breeders or take as stud pups.
Both Joe Don House and Gary Lester often have pups available. Gary is breeding his dog Lesters Snow Watch a lot and he is a very under rated dog. Joe Don uses a bunch of different sires but has done well with a sire he sold called Houses Line Up which in the last 2 years produced numerous big deal derby winners. I personnely have used Line Up and have 4 first year dogs in the kennel out of him and every one has won both in SH. Dog and Allage stakes. These boys go through a lot of dogs to come up with a winner..........puphood1

[puphood1]

I am looking at getting a heavy breed Miller dog.
Lesters Snow Watch just won the Free For All open allage, Also he won the Fitch Farms open allage and one of J. Houses dog run by S. Hurdle a few weeks ago Won the Continental open allage. Snow Watch is consistant and allways a dog to watch and he is as good a Miller breed dog as their is these days on the major allage circut Amt. or Open. He will be running at the National Ch. shortly at Ames. If you are looking for a Miller breed pup it does not get any better than this these days........puphood1

[puphood1]

Whippoorwill is a pretty well established kennel name in it's own right.
There will be dogs in the winners circle with the Millers prefix in their pedigrees for years to come.
Dogs with the Millers prefix will soon no longer be running anywhere, since none have been produced in the past 4 years and many of the young ones were simply pulled out since the cost of doing DNA testing and re-registering (or simply registering) was an additional hassle.

The Qualified dogs to run in the 2009 National Ch. has what I count as approx. 13 dogs that are strongly breed Miller with out me even going to a pedegree. Certainly there is no direct get on paper but the influence is strong still. If you go back to 2002-3-4 you would see a dominace of dog's directly Sired by a Miller Dog be it Powder,Bullet, or True Spirit. One year I counted 14-17 direct get from Miller dogs in the National. I have never concidered the Natuional Ch. Win to be as significant as qualifing to run in it. Ferrel's contribution to the improvement of the pointer breeding program in unequaled by anyone....puphood1

[BdBHunts]

Though there is not any F.Miller dogs reg. any more there are lots of Miller get out there and in particular in KY.

That is where I have been looking. I have been talking to the man who owns Kraftmans Ko Kane, littermate to Millers On Line, Millers Southern Pride and Wiggins River Knot, about the possibility of her being bred in the future. He has other dogs as well that he will be breeding.

[puphood1]

That is where I have been looking. I have been talking to the man who owns Kraftmans Ko Kane, littermate to Millers On Line, Millers Southern Pride and Wiggins River Knot, about the possibility of her being bred in the future. He has other dogs as well that he will be breeding.

I am not familiar with the Dam mentioned but it would have been out of a Wiggins Dam and Powder. Also she would be old by now. Probably a good shot at a good pup. I have a Bullet bitch that I am going to try and breed this year for her last time she is about as old as On Line. Her brother was a dog Furney was running till last year called Briercrest. That Wiggins X Powder cross produced some big strong running dogs. The interesting thing is the winners from that cross have not produced as many winners (that is the usual story). It is the original cross that you want but not available anymore. That is why Ferrel got Dateline from Wiggins.
If you are serious about a All Age pup look at the breeding that is winning the Derby stakes by Ike, Gerry, and Don House and get a pup of the same breeding. They like to keep the best for them selfs as that is their business but there seconds are better than most peoples firsts.......puphood1

[BdBHunts]

You have a PM.