Help Please - whistle sit failures - what do to?

[crockett]

Ruby's a 4 year old yellow lab female, trained without an e-collar, by me, for upland (mostly pheasant) and waterfowl retrieves.

My main goal for this training season is to get her whistle sit to 100% nomatter what the distraction/attraction is. To main goal is to be able to stop her on running pheasant until I can catch up, then release her again.

Her current status is that her butt will HIT the ground on the whistle sit IMMEDIATELY at heel, and within a few steps in most settings when she's out away from me. She will whistle sit (if I whistle) on a flushed bird, except for once in a while (once this season) if they fly out low over easy cover. Where she will almost NEVER obey is if she's got a snootfull of fresh running pheasant - she just HAS to get the bugger up into the air, and seems deaf until she does so! :angry:

Our progress to date was to work up using thrown bumpers, which she of course loves to retrieve, until she would sit on a whistle even when fired up going out to the bumper. I found that she was LESS likely to sit to closer she was to gettign that beloved bumper into her mouth, so I used that to "tempt" her more and more by not whistling until she was already there. That's all great, except that she still chased runners this year until she put them to wing. The only thing that she loves more than a thrown bumper is one fired out of a launcher, so I've been repeating the same drill. She is in a steady sit about 5 feet behind me and I fire off the bumper. Then I send her and stop her on the whislte. It's working because she wants it even MORE than teh regular bumper, so she is failing if I wait too long to blow the whislte. I plan to work our way up slowly letting her get closer and closer to the dummy before the whistle.

So, my question (FINALLY - thanks for reading this far! lol!) is:
1. When she fails, how do I respond? Should I bring her back in, go and get the dummy myself, then repeat the drill (stopping her earlier)? Or should I go to her, bring her back to the spot where I blew the whistle for the sit, then whistle sit her there, praise her for THAT, then release her to get the dummy?
2. I have a good quality 50 -foot longline. Should I put THAT onto her and correct her if she does not sit fast enough on teh way out? Problem with that of course is that it's hard to keep the bumper from falling within 50-feet, so once I let her get out there closer to it before whistling I'd have to have CHASED her to hop on the longline if she fails.

I have found a trainer in the area who has pheasants and quail so I will enlist his help later this year, but I'd like to get as far as I can with this before putting her onto birds so that we can get our money's worth when working with the trainer.

Thanks!
-Croc

[Misty Marsh]

Have you been using a sequential program like "Smartworks" or the Lardy system to go with the e-collar use, or have you been kind of "winging" it? More training info of what you have done to date (collar conditioning, force to pile etc..) is required to determine how you go forward becuase patching this issue like most patch jobs will fail down the road when another piece comes loose( "Man I like that analogy):cheesy:.

[deb]

Instead of throwing the bumper and asking for a sit on the way to the bumper, throw the bumper after the sit.m Try getting her to sit using your long if you have to. Once she is sitting then toss the bumper for reward. She will start to think the whistle means I am going to get a bumper and will start to sit. Don't do this everytime once you are getting the sits. Just do it once in awhile to keep her sitting on the whistle.
deb

[crockett]

Thanks guys.
MistyMarsh - I've used several sources of information, but most closely the Waterdog and Gamedog DVDs and the 10-Minute Retriever Book.
I have not used an e-collar at all, so she is obviously not conditioned for it.
I'm not famililar with the Lardy system.
I don't know what "force to pile" is, but she we did go through forced hold and force-fetch as described in the Waterdog DVD and lots of line-drills to a pile of bumpers/directional backs (but no forcing there).

Deb - without the bumper thrown to tempt her to disobey she will sit at the whistle 100% of the time. No long line required. We certainly do lots of this - she loves it! The problem is really only running pheasants.

Thanks again.
-Croc

[Misty Marsh]

I have not used an e-collar at all, so she is obviously not conditioned for it.Sorry, I read that you had used an e-collar. In that case your limited to the use of an check cord. I'd have to guess that you have not trained for the whistle sit enroute to a pile in the context of "T" handling work either so this is a good time to train for it as you will need a dog to stop and take a cast (directional casts). If the dog knows what "sit" on the whistle is about at heal (reinforced with a crop) , set up a pile and reinforce the sit with a check cord enroute. You will need a pair of heavy leather gloves and some good timing to get the point accross. It's not so much the context of the flush etc.., it's about "sit" meaning sit to the dog and becuase your not an e-collar trainer you will need to make sure it's formalized with the check cord. You can also reinforce the whistle sit on the return using a post and wrapping the check cord around it so when you whistle sit the dog the pull is from behiend them.

[crockett]

Thanks MistyMarsh - that all makes sense to me. Ruby will sit and take a cast (T and double-T drills). On the way back she's not been very good at it without verbal re-enforcement, but on the way out she's pretty good. That's a good idea about the chord around a post to correct her on the way in - I will definitely try that. I guess that using the chord on the way out will be good as well even though she is quite good with that (when there is not a pheasant in her nose!) so that she gets the idea that I mean it notmatter WHAT the attraction to disobey is. That was as well she will be ready for it when we work with live planted birds later this season (I will have the check chord on there then).
Thanks!
-Croc

[crockett]

An update: We did two short sessions whistle sit training over the weekend on the check cord. Corrections were not necessary on the way to the pile. I then tied a caribener (spelling?) clip on the fencepost and gave her the command on the way towards me (the pile was at my feet). I had to correct her a few times to get her to do this quickly enough, but she quickly got the hang of it. Both were short sessions which I terminated on a successful repetition.

We training this morning a bit more formally. We ran standard baseball drill. I let her drag her longline throughout so that she'd get used to it and ignore it. Her whistle sits were quite good. A verbal reinforcement was required after the whistle in a few cases, but otherwise fine. I then got the dummy launcher out, sit-stayed her a few yards behind me. Fired it, let her mark it from her steady position, then heeled her to me, whistle sat her, then lined her to the mark. Her whistle sits were strong up to about 3/4 of the way to the dummy, but as usual, too slow if I let her get closer than that. I did not push her to the point where I thought that she might fail and go the the dummy first before sitting. As soon as I saw her start to slip - i.e. take too many steps to sit after the whislte - I changed up the drill as follows: I fired the bumper higher (so closer - within reach of her 50 foot check cord). I sent her as usual and whistle-sat her at halfway, farther out, then right before the bumper, using the check cord to correct her if she did not sit immediately on the whistle. Because it was such a short distance (only about 50 feet!) she was MOVING pretty fast, so the corrections were quite forceful. After a few corrections she was doing great, so I let her get within a few strides before whistling and she sat perfectly. I quit on that success for todays session.

Only one question: After a forceful correction she tended to hesitate before obeying the "back" command to complete the retrieve. I DID verbally praise her for obeying the sit (after the correction), but she clearly thought that she had failed and her instinct was to come back to heel. With some encouragement and some extra "energy/enthusiasm" in my "back" command she got over this and she seemed to understand what was going on. I think it's OK, but I just wanted to put this out there for comment in case this might cause problems. By the way, she got plenty of uninterrupted retrieves between whistle-sit tests, so she does not "pop". Perhaps the corrections were too forceful? It was hard to find a balance because she was going SO fast. Line line is a good quality Mendota product - very little stretch - so it stops her pretty short when I apply pressure.

Thanks!
-Crockett

[Misty Marsh]

I would think the hesitation is pretty normal after a forceful restraint, remember to send the dog 4-6 times to the back pile without stopping her for every stop or cast, this will help avoid "popping" and a hesitant attitude running handling drill work.

[crockett]

Wow - 4 to 6 times???? I thought it was basically one for one! I'll add a few more un-interrupted retrieves before stopping her next time - thanks!

Watching her this morning I think she was just a little confused about the longline yesterday - I think that she thought it was tied to something and she'd gotten to the end of her rope, so she was waiting for me to come and unclip her or something. Anyhow, she clearly got the idea this morning that she was good to go dragging the longline afterwards.

Pretty much same again today - kept it short and energetic, quit on a success and then went for a walk. We'll keep at it!

Thanks again,
-Croc

[Misty Marsh]

Wow - 4 to 6 times???? I thought it was basically one for one! I'll add a few more un-interrupted retrieves before stopping her next time Absolutely, otherwise you will be training the dog to anticipate being stopped at the apex, 4+ times establishes go hard regardless and will help the dog not to anticipate being stopped.
I think that she thought it was tied to something and she'd gotten to the end of her rope, so she was waiting for me to come and unclip her or somethingLikely
Pretty much same again today - kept it short and energetic, quit on a success and then went for a walk. We'll keep at it!
Exactly!