Whoa training Question

[Little Brit]

I had a question about the whoa training. I have a 6 yr old female brit that I am refreshing on the whoa board. Now she will stop when I tell her to whoa but the initial whoa command she will sit, I then lift her back end up and repeat the command, then she will stand and not move even when I pull on the checkcord and walk around her. On real game she will point without sitting but wants to lungee at the game. what do you think I should do about the sitting while training. I am reconditioning her with the e-collar so I don't know if I should use that yet it has only been a week but I used one on her befor for a few years but stopped using it because it broke. Should I be training with live birds. I had her out last night for a walk around the block we have lots of rabbits around and she pointed three without sitting tried to lungee but I kept placing her back then she would steady. Any suggestions
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[jobbershunting]

what do you think I should do about the sitting while training. I am reconditioning her with the e-collar so I don't know if I should use that yet it has only been a week but I used one on her befor for a few years but stopped using it because it broke. Should I be training with live birds. I had her out last night for a walk around the block we have lots of rabbits around and she pointed three without sitting tried to lungee but I kept placing her back then she would steady. Any suggestions
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For the sitting on whoa you could use the CC around the flank to prevent her from sitting and then transition to the e-collar around the flank and nick her if she tries to sit. For the lunging use planted pigeons and be sure they are covered in some way (kick cage or something similar) so the dog cant lung in and get them, when she goes on point walk up and take a hold of the CC, calm her down to a state where she will stay on point and you can let the CC go slack, have a helper flush the bird, when the dog brakes on the flush pull back on the CC as hard as you can, that way she will learn that braking on the flush causes an unpleasant result. It wont take long for her to get the point.

[Parabuteo]

I use a “Stand” command instead of “Whoa”. The dogs become steady to the command “Stand” in obedience, I find that they will not sit or move in the field.

[Little Brit]

She will point in the field on live birds or rabbits so mabye I need live birds while training. Same goes for retrieving, only real birds, she will not bring bumpers or dummies back which is ok with me

[Big Bird]

Lets break this apart.

1 First the dog is 6 years old…..You will need to be patient and consistent…6 years of doing what she has been doing is a lot of changing.

2 You say refreshing… When you originally had her trained to whoa did she sit during whoa, or is this a newly acquired trait. Be honest as a lot of young dogs are trained to sit prior to whoa, and to get the transition from whoa and sit takes a little more training time. If it is newly acquired, your refreshing her to stand by being consistent should instill the old form of standing for whoa, and sit to place you butt on the floor. A half hitch you’re your check cord around the mid section creating a handle to lift her every time she relaxes to sit can be used to reinforce the correction. Be consistent. You say she stands to point so I take this as to be only an obedience issue with the dog confused on your expectations.

3 “On real game she points, but wants to lunge at the game”… I am confused here, she is either pointing, or lunging…”What is considered REAL Game” … If I can read into your statement, she goes on point and then lunges to attempt to take out the bird. (Real game) and I am generalizing that real game is any live bird, being a training pigeon, chukar, woodcock. , grouse. (Pheasant and fir are another issue). One , issue could be that your dog has not being conditioned to hold a point , and the other could be the method you use to come in to flush the game on point. Your dog should be able to hold a point until the bird either wild flushes, or you have relaxed time to approach the dog, load you gun, position any other gunners. You need to condition your dog to do this. Working with live planted birds will condition your dog.
The method you approach the dog, could contribute to her busting the bird on you. She needs to see YOU so do not approach from behind, come in from her side so she knows it is you. You may need to give her a reinforcing whoa to make sure she hold tight while you flush the bird. If it is my dog she gets six feet of rope to attempt to chase before she runs out of rope and falls to the ground or spun around. She is immediately place back in the spot she left, given a whoa command. If I have a bird in my pocket she gets it thrown out in front and corrected again. I do not tolerate hunting dogs that are not steady to the wing,

4 Should I start training with live birds? You make it sound as if you were training with dead birds!!!!…… Yes , live birds, a bird dog needs live birds…..I would forget the rabbits, she is sight pointing them, not using here inherited capable nose that you purchased her for. You can see the rabbit. She can smell the birds…encougage her to smell the LIVE birds, point Live birds, hold live birds on point until you flush the bird. Then retrieve dead birds when you want her to, not when she wants to….

Keep working with your dog.

There is a good pointing dog clinic July 18-19 in Niagara Falls.. There is still openings, $140.00 for two full days, lunch provided..

PM me if you are interested….

[Sharon]

Just a few principles that might help.

A good whoa table has a cord hanging down for the flank. Sitting is not an issue.They sit when they are unsure and they know sitting is always acceptable from their obedience work.

You can only use an e-collar to reinforce something the dog knows well.
Stimulating her will not cause her to stop sitting, as she will have no idea what the stimulation is for.

The e-collar is an extension of the cc. Only use it when you can't get your hands on the dog.

Use your cc to keep her from lunging at the game. Don't use an e-collar around birds - only after they flush.

You can't have a bird dog without lots of birds.
A her stage she needs hard flying pigeons.

If you can afford it, you really need a launcher so you can manage your dog and launch the bird at the same time.

Good luck. Enjoy your dog.

[Little Brit]

1 Patient and consistent is my middle name

2 -When I first trained her she would whoa without sitting
- I do use the half hitch around her mid section the only thing I don't use is live birds while I'm doing this exercise (I do it in my backyard and it's not that big of a yard.

3 while out hunting for woodcock or grouse she will point but by the time I get to her she will have crept up and flushed the bird (not steady to wing I think is the term am I corrected)
- I do usally come up from behind her when I do get close enough
- wouldn't the whoa training be conditioned to hold point

4 sorry been out helping buddies train their labs and they use dead bird
so pigeon we be best to use or something different like quail or chuckers

And as for the training day in the falls, I would love to go but for $140 my wife would put that e-collar around my neck but I will try.

Thanks for the help and I'll keep at it.




Lets break this apart.

1 First the dog is 6 years old…..You will need to be patient and consistent…6 years of doing what she has been doing is a lot of changing.

2 You say refreshing… When you originally had her trained to whoa did she sit during whoa, or is this a newly acquired trait. Be honest as a lot of young dogs are trained to sit prior to whoa, and to get the transition from whoa and sit takes a little more training time. If it is newly acquired, your refreshing her to stand by being consistent should instill the old form of standing for whoa, and sit to place you butt on the floor. A half hitch you’re your check cord around the mid section creating a handle to lift her every time she relaxes to sit can be used to reinforce the correction. Be consistent. You say she stands to point so I take this as to be only an obedience issue with the dog confused on your expectations.

3 “On real game she points, but wants to lunge at the game”… I am confused here, she is either pointing, or lunging…”What is considered REAL Game” … If I can read into your statement, she goes on point and then lunges to attempt to take out the bird. (Real game) and I am generalizing that real game is any live bird, being a training pigeon, chukar, woodcock. , grouse. (Pheasant and fir are another issue). One , issue could be that your dog has not being conditioned to hold a point , and the other could be the method you use to come in to flush the game on point. Your dog should be able to hold a point until the bird either wild flushes, or you have relaxed time to approach the dog, load you gun, position any other gunners. You need to condition your dog to do this. Working with live planted birds will condition your dog.
The method you approach the dog, could contribute to her busting the bird on you. She needs to see YOU so do not approach from behind, come in from her side so she knows it is you. You may need to give her a reinforcing whoa to make sure she hold tight while you flush the bird. If it is my dog she gets six feet of rope to attempt to chase before she runs out of rope and falls to the ground or spun around. She is immediately place back in the spot she left, given a whoa command. If I have a bird in my pocket she gets it thrown out in front and corrected again. I do not tolerate hunting dogs that are not steady to the wing,

4 Should I start training with live birds? You make it sound as if you were training with dead birds!!!!…… Yes , live birds, a bird dog needs live birds…..I would forget the rabbits, she is sight pointing them, not using here inherited capable nose that you purchased her for. You can see the rabbit. She can smell the birds…encougage her to smell the LIVE birds, point Live birds, hold live birds on point until you flush the bird. Then retrieve dead birds when you want her to, not when she wants to….

Keep working with your dog.

There is a good pointing dog clinic July 18-19 in Niagara Falls.. There is still openings, $140.00 for two full days, lunch provided..

PM me if you are interested….

[Big Bird]

1 Patient and consistent is my middle name..
Patient, building on what the dog knows and being consistent…

2 -When I first trained her she would whoa without sitting
- I do use the half hitch around her mid section the only thing I don't use is live birds while I'm doing this exercise (I do it in my backyard and it's not that big of a yard. It is ok to train her to whoa, sit heal, come without birds, dead or alive… This is yard work and is too often overlooked by many trainers. Get the basics well reinforced, and build on them.

3 while out hunting for woodcock or grouse she will point but by the time I get to her she will have crept up and flushed the bird (not steady to wing I think is the term am I corrected)
- I do usually come up from behind her when I do get close enough Try to approach her from the side, but I really believe the dog needs conditioning while on point, and staunching up while on point. Soft praise, while on point, lengthen the durations while she is on point, style her up. At this stage she should never be allowed to catch a planted bird. It sounds like she has had this opportunity and caught birds by lunging in.
- wouldn't the whoa training be conditioned to hold point Whoa training gives obedience, correct whoa trained the dog should obey your command and stay while you flush the bird. Desire, prey drive will want the dog to case. You are the master, you tell her when to chase.

4 sorry been out helping buddies train their labs and they use dead bird
so pigeon we be best to use or something different like quail or chuckers Have you been running your Brit with the lab? Your dog points, the lab flushes. Your dog points the lad takes the point away, so your dog now lunges it to beat the lab…this could be again part of your dog lunging in when on point. She hears something approaching, believes it is another dog and lunges in, and takes out the bird. You should be working with a bird that flys (Pigeons are excellent). Establish your dog on point on a long lead, gather in the long lead while softly commanding whoa, stroke your dog slowly will saying whoa, push her tail up and gently push her forward while feeling her resist. You should eventually be able to move in front of her and release the bird.

And as for the training day in the falls, I would love to go but for $140 my wife would put that e-collar around my neck but I will try. The training clinic is this weekend,

Thanks for the help and I'll keep at it.

[Little Brit]

Thanks for the help I'll do my best and follow your direction. I don't bring my dog when I help my friends train I just go and watch or throw birds for them.

[Ontdon]

You are confusing several different things.

Whoa- means stop moving your feet and stand . Do not introduce birds to this until you have accomplished this task. Get her back up off the ground onto a table where you have control then move down to the whoa board and then to the ground. Whoa does not mean " point the bird" A bird can be used after whoa has been solidified to try to get her to move or "Break

Point- Stop solid and intense, a natural inherent trait, not a command. Did she ever really do this or simply slow down and then creep or catwalk in until she jumps her game. Pointing can be enhanced on the end of a checkcord with no verbal commands but if the dog continues to road in the bird should be flushed and the dog restrained so as not to chase. Only when the dog establishes point should the bird be shot as a reward. Hopefully the dog will figure this out.

Steady- If the dog does establish point and moves when she hears or sees you coming ,she is not steady and the checkcord and flushing sequence discussed in pointing can be used.
There are no shortcuts. When you start taking shortcuts you start to get dogs that are not reliable, steady, pointers.
This is only my opinion and you can choose to take guidance from it or not.