Using trained dogs to teach?

[captainjack]

I thought that readers might find this interesting and be able to contribute some of their personal experiences or comments.

I seemed to hit a wall with force fetching my six month old pup as she would only reach to take the bumper from me with an ear pinch. She appeared to know what I was demanding, and had a very good hold and fetched properly once ear pinched, but not until.

Starting to get frustrated and not wanting to get too hard on her, I decided to demonstrate using Arwen. I took both dogs out and had the pup sit while I went thru different fetch commands with Arwen. First from the sit position, then from the ground and then a jump game that I play.

The pup appeared to be observing and getting excited with Arwen and my demonstration.

I then sat Arwen down and did the same routine with the pup. She followed Arwen's example almost perfectly and in the end was jumping to my chest to take the bumper on the fetch command.

Both dogs appear to get very excited when I am working with the other and this excitement sure makes the whole procedure far more interesting for the pup.

I plan to use Arwen as an assistant through out the whole force fetch / basics procedure and will let you know how it works out.

Do you think dogs learn from watching other dogs perform? Now what about bad habits? Can they pick these up by observing other dogs in training? What are your experiences. It sure is something the pro doesn't have time to do or develope.

Looking forward to your replies.

PS. Before I get smart a.. comments from my sarcastic friends, I will answer their question first, "yes, I would let Arwen do all the training if I could!"

[deb]

I feel that dogs can learn from other dogs, good or bad. Competition is a great tool for teaching sometimes, but you have to be careful with it and not take it to far. It is like most things a little is good, but to much can be bad. I am sure you could run into lots of reactions you don't want, like being posessive over bumpers, getting sticky with bumpers etc. Just be carefull with the competition, because that is what it is.
deb

[jo mcrow]

I have trained all but my first gun dog with demonstration method.
I myself like to see a task demonstrated before attempting it.
Keep up the by example training!!!
Jo Mcrow

[Anna Scott]

Peter, not sure how it works with formal training but it only took one night for the kennel dogs coming into the house to learn how to sleep on the couch like the others. LOL

[Houlagan]

I run my dogs on cattle and raccoon, and I've always put an experienced dog out with the pup I'm working with. On the cattle they learn particular commands on the fly by watching the older dogs and when teaching a young'un about treeing, they always get more into it the first couple of times if they have help.
Having said that I have ruined a really nice treeing dog by putting him out with a girl that loves to perform acrobatics during training (she's awesome in the woods though). Used to be that he'd just got on the tree and hammer, but now he's all over the place and hardly makes a sound.:angry:

[Lenore]

I do think letting them watch to help learn is a good idea. I think that for the most part dogs want to please and maybe they just need a little extra help. I know for myself, I can read something new but until I see someone else do it or they help me, I really don't have a clue how to do it.

Please let us know how it goes.

[Jojoe]

If there were consistant results to be found in this form of training I would think that professional trainers would be in the perfect position to identify and exploit the process.

General behaviour that I've attributed to my younger dog watching my older dog perform: wanting to go where the other dog goes and picking up/holding items that the other dog wants. e.g. how to climb stairs, chasing anything thrown, fighting over anything picked up, getting into the boat using an easier method. Upon reflection, younger/older has seemingly little to do with who teaches whom.

Interesting topic.

[duxbac]

Sounds like Arwen taught you something.:lame:

[North of 7]

This would change the idea of. Ones that can. Do and ones that can't teach.

:confused::confused::confused:

Jim

[3 black dogs]

I seemed to hit a wall with force fetching my six month old pup as she would only reach to take the bumper from me with an ear pinch. She appeared to know what I was demanding, and had a very good hold and fetched properly once ear pinched, but not until.

Starting to get frustrated and not wanting to get too hard on her, I decided to demonstrate using Arwen. I took both dogs out and had the pup sit while I went thru different fetch commands with Arwen. First from the sit position, then from the ground and then a jump game that I play.

The pup appeared to be observing and getting excited with Arwen and my demonstration.

I then sat Arwen down and did the same routine with the pup. She followed Arwen's example almost perfectly and in the end was jumping to my chest to take the bumper on the fetch command.

Both dogs appear to get very excited when I am working with the other and this excitement sure makes the whole procedure far more interesting for the pup.

"

It is worth a try Peter. Any chance your new addition is a bit immature and is not ready for FF yet maybe give her some time and come back to it.

Chris

[3 black dogs]

This would change the idea of. Ones that can. Do and ones that can't teach.

:confused::confused::confused:

Jim

Now that there is funny :first::worms:

[BdBHunts]

I took both dogs out and had the pup sit while I went thru different fetch commands with Arwen.

Pointing guys have been using dogs staked out on a chain gang for a long time. The pups learn manners and behaviour and what goes on in the field by being chained and watching.

[captainjack]

Jojoe,

I am not sure that you are correct with your comment, "If there were consistant results to be found in this form of training I would think that professional trainers would be in the perfect position to identify and exploit the process."
I am quite sure that even pros would be honest in saying that there are alot of things that they would do if they had time. This is not a put down of pros, it is the reality of their situation.
As an amateur, that is one thing that many of us do have - time. Using it wisely is the trick.
As for consistant results, if this did exist, all dogs would be field champions - especially pro trained dogs.

Remember...nothing ventured...nothing gained.


Peter.

[Wayne Dibbley]

Observational learning (imitation) in animals is a subject studied intensley with some pretty interesting results. Dogs have been excluded as a species capable of imitative learning in a scientific sense, while other animals' abilities to learn in this manner have been quantified scientifically.

Here is an interesting link with some clips from Steven Lindsay's Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior, his books are an awesome in depth and well documented read...

http://books.google.ca/books?id=T5ylLv5xUDQC&pg=PA271&lpg=PA271&dq=dogs+observational+learning&source=bl&ots=Ji4lpVQKhX&sig=O6NVVZdCAFPUmB_quEHrm0q7tw0&hl=en&ei=pohgStSOFdOrlAeLnOjPCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10

Another behavior list that often has pretty interesting tidbits that occassionally could be parlayed to our retriever and gun dog training is the animal reinforcement forum, though the focus of ARF is generally more broad animal behavior/learning/cognition focused.

It's my opinion that dogs restrained from the work are often, at least initially more eager to get "back in the game" - that elevated enthusiasm often results in more energetic performance, fun.

Many dog's chained out come off the chain enthusiastically and behave excitedly to no longer be restrained, however show little to no improvement in task performance to support they learned anything during all of their observation. However, most of my teaches through my schooling might tell you the same of me....

Interesting stuff, keep us posted Peter and have fun!

All the best

Wayne

[Jojoe]

Remember...nothing ventured...nothing gained.


Learning to apply the generally accepted tenants of a Carr based retriever training program has proven to be a challenge for me. Learning to 'read' my dog and to attempt to gain an understanding of how my dogs think is an even more difficult task.

Listening to, talking with and reading about successful trainers pushing the envelope in training, thinking outside the box (you) or in the case of the Retrievers Online (Hillman) puppy training article attempting a paradigm shift - these are what keep the art of training alive and developing.

Good on you for attempting to further develop methods of retriever training! In my limited exposure to this hobby, I have my doubts about the usefulness of having dogs learn from dogs. I hope you continue your methods and are able to give us an update in the near future - perhaps other training processes that this method was anecdotally successful in improving your young dog's comprehension.

For now, I'm definitely 'inside the box' - for me it's a BIG enough box.

Cheers,
Ron

[captainjack]

Great post Wayne and JoJoe. I should point out that my idea of using Arwen was an attempt to take a break on the ear pinch as Chris pointed out. I was and am pleasantly surprised at the positive results. I put Gracie back on the table and she proceeded to progress well even taking the bumper off the ground for the first time.
She is amazed to see Arwen jump onto the table and perform the fetch exercise with such enthusiasm. She still is hesitant to do the jump onto the table, but will do the jump off the table with the bumper in her mouth and will pick it back up when I take it from her and put it on the ground and ask her to fetch.
I do believe that mimicing her mother is more an issue than competition.
Will take a look at the link Wayne, but I am having fun and believe that is the best way to get pup thru force fetch and collar conditioning while demanding and maintaining a high standard of performance.
Peter.
PS. Jim, Arwen is always teaching me .... too bad that I am such a slow learner. That is one of the disadvantages of a train alone program!