Shot Gun Simulator.

[captainjack]

Hi All,

Have been training with the new Thunder Equipment shot gun simulator and have been very impressed. Very easy to use, lighweight, safe and a good bang. Clubs should check these out before buying noise makers. Do not know the price, but would love to own one.

Peter

[Retrievers ONLINE]

Hi All,

Have been training with the new Thunder Equipment shot gun simulator and have been very impressed. Very easy to use, lighweight, safe and a good bang. Clubs should check these out before buying noise makers. Do not know the price, but would love to own one.

Peter

Peter,

Currently also looking into this product and negotiating with manufacturer for a deal for ORA. So yes, please standby while we do the legwork.

Cheers

PS. Used the old Max Blaster today on a wiper and blew some dogs minds!

[North of 7]

Peter we used one today and found the noise great. Our only worry is at a trial with young people using them what is the delay going to be from when the judge signals to when the gun goes off. Also found if you load it early it bleeds out and has to be reloaded. Heard they are $400. Jim

[captainjack]

Gun Supply has them for 379. Delay is 4 seconds and pretty simple to use. Perhaps there should be an age limit on paid kids ie. 16 years old and leave the midgets at home.

Peter

[LeeW]

Find me 10 - 16 year olds to come and work the trial...

[Lpgar]

Dennis....Glad your researching these for ORA. But I think in the real world the Lucky Launcher 2 and red shot is still going to work out as the best answer for most clubs and the help they have. Simple...cheap to use.... half the price

Lee....Peter lives in the Dream Land of Long Point... 25....16 to 18 yr olds on Saturday to help out. Last year We could have had 12 federally firearmed licenced shooters to boot. Too bad of the insurance issue or We could have just put shotguns out.

I would love to use one of the new blasters for a Month. Then We could really tell how well they would work at a trial

Gar

[Howard]

Dennis....Glad your researching these for ORA. But I think in the real world the Lucky Launcher 2 and red shot is still going to work out as the best answer for most clubs and the help they have. Simple...cheap to use.... half the price
Gar

ORA will probably end up with a combination of Thunders & Lucky Launchers, some of each. This is because of the price of the Thunders and the problem of small gunners using them. Some of each seems to be the logical solution.

We have commitments from a few clubs right now and it looks like it is going to happen, remember folks, this is about the BIG picture, not only your clubs noisemaker issue, but the WHOLE FT & HT circuit in Ontario. Having these available for all ORA member clubs means CONSISTENTLY decent noisemakers at ALL the events you enter in Ontario, not just your own clubs.

Call me with any questions or your clubs commitment to help with a measly $300.00!!

Howard

[Labber]

Niagara supports this initiative.

[kawarthalabs]

Howard - What clubs are already on board and how many more do you need?
Tony.

[North of 7]

I agree with Gar and as a judge I am not going to have a delay of 5 sec from when the handler signals to when the bang goes off. The amount of bitching that would happen if the dog swings off the bird because of the delay ain't worth it.
Also if you don't hold the button when loading the same every time the level of sound is different were with the ramsets
there is no delay and the sound is the same every time JMO

[Howard]

Howard - What clubs are already on board and how many more do you need?
Tony.

Only verbal commitments, so far I have 5, no point in names until I get written commitment and cheques. I would love to see 10, but if that doesn't happen, some of the verbals have offered to double up their donations to $600.00 to make this happen. I have to speak to the rest of the ORA exec, but I would also like to see ORA put up $300.00 :)

I will keep everyone posted......

Jim,

I understand your sentiment regarding the delay, but if we have more than 1 type of device, judges can put the Thunders on long birds with experienced gunners to combat that problem and put the 22 cal. launchers on the mid and shorter guns to keep a decent cadence....I'm not saying this is a perfect fix, but it should be a step in the right direction....

Howard

[Retrievers ONLINE]

There are many issues with any noise-maker-just as there were issues when most clubs used real shotguns and poppers. I think it's real important that nobody jump into this too quickly and make decisons based on an timeline.

Who says we have to have to get all the equipment at once and have everything perfect by April 2010?

Who says only the clubs have to finance?

Let's just set a goal of working towards improvement and keep at it even if we did get a dozen big bangs soon. Meanwhile don't forget about quality birds (ducks AND pheasants), good throwers, top-notch grounds, a good schedule, improving judging, entry systems and the list goes on. The main thing that ORA can do is act as a rallying body towards improvement. Their website and emails can help in the "keep-in-touch" department and this forum can help with brainstorming and pulse-reading.

Cheers

An Ontario Snowbird

[LeeW]

There are many issues with any noise-maker-just as there were issues when most clubs used real shotguns and poppers. I think it's real important that nobody jump into this too quickly and make decisons based on an timeline.

Who says we have to have to get all the equipment at once and have everything perfect by April 2010?

Who says only the clubs have to finance?

Let's just set a goal of working towards improvement and keep at it even if we did get a dozen big bangs soon. Meanwhile don't forget about quality birds (ducks AND pheasants), good throwers, top-notch grounds, a good schedule, improving judging, entry systems and the list goes on. The main thing that ORA can do is act as a rallying body towards improvement. Their website and emails can help in the "keep-in-touch" department and this forum can help with brainstorming and pulse-reading.

Cheers

An Ontario Snowbird
The goal was set last year when ORA formed a group to address all the issues you brought up. We have had one judging seminar that was well done and well attened.We plan on having another one with the place and date already in place. We have been working on an entry system for some time now and we feel we are close to a deal. WE have a website with believe it or not all the up to date info that we have .WE would love to hear from the Retriever council with updates but that is slow coming and the minutes from the last meeting are due in soon I hope.
WE are not jumping into anything but we have talked and talked and talked about the issues that field trials have and we now have a group of people trying to address these issues.
As far as having good birds it is the clubs responsibility to have good birds. All the clubs must have good birds and grounds because I cannot remember a club that did not have any entries.
Dennis this is not a knock against your post but I feel it nessasary to point out that ORA is doing things to make our games better and that we are not here to just talk and talk but we want to get things done ...

[Retrievers ONLINE]

Dennis this is not a knock against your post but I feel it nessasary to point out that ORA is doing things to make our games better and that we are not here to just talk and talk but we want to get things done ... Nor was I making a knock against ORA whatsoever. My point was that ORA cannot, or should not do it all. I see it, as I said, as a rallying point. It can help improve many aspects of the game but everybody has to help too. Qaulity birds or any other issue could be promoted by ORA just as quality noisemakers could be.

Some of you may not remember the old days when ORFTA was in it's hay day. They coordinated giving money to clubs, a judges clearing house, a newsletter, bird purchases, a trial schedule card, and even a Championship stake. So it's not like these ideas are new but things have changed. That was 30 years ago and club participation is so much weaker. I remember when clubs like NPRTC and later LRCO had 60-100 members!!!! I think there are just as many out there with working retrievers but the game is much more "dispersed." For one thing we now have hunt tests. In those days if you trained retreivers beyond the duck blind, you played in field trials. Almost everybody trained their own dogs. Almost nobody went south. There were fewer groups associated together as clients. Almost every dog in a trial was amateur trained from Onatrio except for 1-2 Pros.

I could go on but the point is that there is a greater need than ever for coordinating bodies such as ORA, and the various other provinicial associations like those out west.:violin:

[krakadawn]

There is no question that we have a greater need for organizations such as ORA-that is why I pushed for ORA to be revitalized and begin to 'broker' numerous items of common interest to all clubs across Ontario.We have become very dispersed and when that happens consistency of how our events are carried out comes into question.Issues around birds,throwers,guns,mechanics and dates are just several of the topics that arise.
People try but things like having a sunken bird(due to bad birds in the first place) in the last series don't particularly make the guy on the line feel great or having a low 'sound' blank pistol on a huge retired don't make my day. Fortunately, I believe ORA has begun to tackle issues like these.
Are we there yet?
I don't think so by any stretch.
We have begun however down that road that hopefully will yield better results for us all here in Ontario-topics like the new noise makers are very worthy topics.We need to get as much data as possible prior to purchasing any but the results will help all clubs and competitors with the increased consistency.

ORA cannot 'go away' now or sit idle-they need to be the hub to keep issues up front and make in roads where possible.Maintaining communication amongst all benefits all!

Although ORFTA has not existed for some time,their efforts at that time were extremely beneficial to all Field Trial clubs.Just imagine the following:
-reps from 20 clubs meeting to set trial dates for next year
-approx. $10,000 shared with host clubs to fund bird purchases for next trial($500/club).
-rule discussions and recommendations brought forth re any changes
-an existing body to respond to issues around training retrievers in the province.
-discussions on judging and selection processes.
-arranging for quality birds.
Having everyone in the room allowed problem solving around numerous other issues for the benefit of the game-clubs saw this important enough to ensure they were representative.

Will ORA eventually tackle some of the above?? Not sure but we are making steady progress on the identified items received as input at our meetings and accomplished several goals last year. It was a good start; however, much still to be done.I like us to move in a very deliberate fashion and use the existing resources that we have-mainly the resources in people and hopefully we will have no shortage in people volunteering to asist.

I firmly agree we have some ground to make up but what else is new.

Jim

[Lpgar]

Jim

Indeed...central organization and discussion will help our game huge!

One thing that is driving some of the need is the game does not and has not remained static. Changes in how We do things at the club level to meet the demands for better grounds...better birds...better equipment. Whether because of legislation (like the federal firearms act) or land use or bird availablity or just because these animals are evolving and getting that much better need to be addressed.

If We look at the tests of the 1970s....probably We could get away with at starter pistol...but what is it going to be like in 2010 let alone 2015 (We are thinking about 2013 judges now).

We want to make the needed changes because We owe it to these fine animals We chose to compete with and train!

Gar

[zeekster]

If we change from using powder load noise makes to Thunder Guns were almost going to have to have Judge and Gunner seminar prior to trial. Can you imagine trying to time the judges signal to when the gunner pulls the trigger and then try to set this up on a triple or quad, ok in training but not for trials.
Scrap the idea of even looking at anything other than powder loads for competition. Of course if ORA or any one else was to supply fully trained gunners to go with the the Thunder Guns it might be a better idea then it would save us all the work of trying to find gunners. But we know that's not going to happen. My own opinion is that no birds would double using propane guns with quickly trained help.

Dave

[Howard]

If we change from using powder load noise makes to Thunder Guns were almost going to have to have Judge and Gunner seminar prior to trial. Can you imagine trying to time the judges signal to when the gunner pulls the trigger and then try to set this up on a triple or quad, ok in training but not for trials.
Scrap the idea of even looking at anything other than powder loads for competition. Of course if ORA or any one else was to supply fully trained gunners to go with the the Thunder Guns it might be a better idea then it would save us all the work of trying to find gunners. But we know that's not going to happen. My own opinion is that no birds would double using propane guns with quickly trained help.

Dave

Part of ORA's mandate in this issue is to incorporate the importance of using proper noisemakers in our upcoming judges seminar. Maybe some training on the propane devices will be included, I don't know for sure. Regardless, we (ORA) are trying to accomodate any suggestions from the community, so keep them coming. Something will come out of this that improves the game, probably won't satisfy everyone, but we will do what the majority feels is right and continue to monitor the issue and adjust the equipment and/or program as necessary.

Thanks, Howard

[Retrievers ONLINE]

If we change from using powder load noise makes to Thunder Guns were almost going to have to have Judge and Gunner seminar prior to trial. Can you imagine trying to time the judges signal to when the gunner pulls the trigger and then try to set this up on a triple or quad, ok in training but not for trials.
Scrap the idea of even looking at anything other than powder loads for competition. Of course if ORA or any one else was to supply fully trained gunners to go with the the Thunder Guns it might be a better idea then it would save us all the work of trying to find gunners. But we know that's not going to happen. My own opinion is that no birds would double using propane guns with quickly trained help.

Dave

Dave

Since I don't like to be negative about any new option until proven poor, can you tell us your experience with the Thunder Equipment Shotgun Simulator? How fast did you find it recycles. How quickly can you load it? What percentage of misfires did you have?

Dennis

[retrieverfever]

Since so much is being written about the Shotgun Simulator I thought it would be beneficial to provide some facts.

The Shotgun Simulator being produced by Thunder Equipment www.thunderequipment.com has a delay of about 2 seconds. From the time you initially depress the button it is ready to fire very quickly. If you were to time the average delay between a handler calling for a bird and the actual shotgun blast it is equivalent. Many people will charge a little longer and although acceptable it isnt really necessary. You cant "overcharge" the simulator. If you hold the button for 2 seconds it will fire.

The average time to train a new person to use the simulator is around 30 seconds. Compare that to regular shotgun or primer pistol. The instructions are pretty simple: press, wait, press again. If the dog isnt ready just release the button. When the handler is ready start the process again. Not much unlike using a regular gun.

One can of fuel delivers around 600 - 800 shots effectively making it less than 1 cent per shot. Compare that cost to any other options available. There are no moving parts except for the firing button and it requires no maintenance. No worry about hammers or springs breaking, powder corrosion, rust, or cleaning.

The amount the firing button is depressed does not impact the sound. There are some suggestions that the button has to be exactly correct to get the proper sound. In fact, any depression of the button is sufficient to get the simulator to work properly. The amount you press the trigger is not relevant.

The sound of the simulator is within 2 db (decibels) of an actual shotgun blast and significantly louder than any .22/.32 blank or 209 primer currently being used.

It has been used at a licensed field trial event in the states and was accepted as sufficient and equivalent to the shotguns at other stations. The timing and use was also acceptable.

There is no recognizable recoil. It sounds like a shotgun with no kick.

US pros are converting from using blanks to the simulator for daily training. The safety, quality, benefits, ease of use and cost savings are evident. Retriever clubs and individuals can get the same benefit.

Whatever decisions made by clubs pertaining to safety and performance of various options that advance retriever training and competition are good if they are ultimately happy with the results and the sport progresses. Just please make sure to fully evaluate all of your options before making decisions. The retriever game deserves that..

[North of 7]

To start with I think this is a good product.
To disagree with a couple of things, the first 2 times I used it I got a poof not a bang Guess I either didn't load it enough
or to early and it blead out.
There is no way the delay is the same as a shotgun or pistal.
As a person running a dog I can live with the delay cause it can be trained for but as a judge I can see mechanic problems.
Should make a deal were if they are bought and they don't work out at trials we could get a full refund

Jim

[Labber]

Retrieverfever,
Thanks for that post. It was excellent. I for one am now even more interested in seeing this product in action.
Do you have a personal stake in the product?
Can you post a picture of it?

Thanks.

[zeekster]

Dennis I HAVE NO EXPERIENCE WITH THE PRODUCT. there Dennis I said it!
From what i have read here your talking 2 to 4 seconds delay from when you initially go to fire add that onto the normal delay from a gunner and then signal for your next mark with the delays you speak of and then maybe have 2 more marks. Yes I can see problems.
i've gunned enough in the last 30 years to learn to watch judges and try to be ready for them i usually count to 2 after the shot before throwing bird, yes i do try to give the dog every advantage.
As far as it being something else we might have to learn to train for, i can do that with powder loads but not going to have the same effect as having the real thing. Just another expense for the average amateur to go out and spend money on. Hell we don't all get handed equipment to try out and maybe keep for a long term evaluation.
As a training tool they sound great and if they can fire a shot when the trigger is pulled great. Untill then keep with powder load units.
I guess the only way to see what happens is try both and if one works better and is less trouble free then stick with that and hope we can get the money back for the ones that didn't do the job.

Dave

[retrieverfever]

Retrieverfever,
Thanks for that post. It was excellent. I for one am now even more interested in seeing this product in action.
Do you have a personal stake in the product?
Can you post a picture of it?

Thanks.

Thanks for the comment. I know that if you go to www.thunderequipment.com you can see various videos and photos..

[Drew Good]

Retrieverfever,
Do you have a personal stake in the product?


Yes..........

I must say it looks very interesting..

Drew

[zeekster]

From my own experience the Thunder Launchers do not work in the rain.
Will the Thunder 100 shotgun simulator work in an all day downpour, an off and on rain or drizzly kind of day like we get all to often at Field Trials or are they a fair weather tool.
I the answer is no then that answers a lot of questions.
Also how much maintenance do they require.

Dave

[Labber]

After having watched the video, I would be hesitant to use these near a mosque.

[rocko]

www.thunderequipment.com

How much does this unit weight?

[Retrievers ONLINE]

From my own experience the Thunder Launchers do not work in the rain.
Will the Thunder 100 shotgun simulator work in an all day downpour, an off and on rain or drizzly kind of day like we get all to often at Field Trials or are they a fair weather tool.
I the answer is no then that answers a lot of questions.
Also how much maintenance do they require.

Dave

The issues of weather and extreme temperatures and maintenance are all things that must be looked into thoroughly. I know already that adjustments might be necessary when temps are below 20 and above 90. I also know that users are not complaining about the new products during downpours. Perhaps your experience is with the old Thunder Launchers which are not at all like the new Thunder Simulators. You previously stated you have no experience with them!

I see absolutely no reason why the average Amateur would have to rush out and buy these devices to be competitve. Are you training to be competive these days? If so, and you have have noisemakers go ahead and use them. I still use blank pistols most days. If you have popper guns go and ahead and use them. Perhaps, like me, you will use shotguns some days and handload poppers to save money.

As it turns out hese new devices could be a lot cheaper in the long run compared to buying popper blanks. That appeals to me!! It's getting harder and harder and more expensive to buy components and powder and store it leagally.

A lot of Hunt test folks just use primer loads at the line but such loads don't cut it at 400 yards.

I will continue to look for better ways and not prematurely close the door on change until warranted.

Dennis

[retrieverfever]

How much does this unit weight?

It weighs 7 lbs / 3.2 kg. Roughly equivalent to a standard long shotgun..

[North of 7]

After using one again today I think I was better then before but people on line still kept on signaly like I didn.t see them
so I still maintain that for training it is good but as a judge I will not have them unless it can be proven that people can use them better then I can.
Maybe I am a slow leaner
Jim

[LeeW]

Untill we can all get together and agree on what noisemaker to buy and untill we can get the field trial community to work together we will be doomed to bad noise makers.

It seems we are happier bitching about all that is wrong with game than trying to find solutions to the important issues...

[North of 7]

Lee I am not bitchy about them. I am only saying what I see and feel. If I was going to bitch it would be that ORA is prepared to spend a lot of money on these before all the answers are in on them, seeing they have just come on the market. I only ran 1 trial last year were I thought the gun may have been an issue so I don't think this is a do or the trial game is down the shiter so what is wrong with waiting a bit tlll we get a take on if they will be ok. The one person I trained with today that likes them would be the first to bitch if there was a delay and his dog turned off of it. So I will still maintain at this point if a club is going to use them don't ask me to judge until they are proven to be OK This is not just my opiniion. Lee have you not seen a potential problem with them when you train? Jim

[LeeW]

Jim my reply was at the community in general not you.ORA has decided to do something about the noise maker issue.As it was broughgt to us as an issue that needed to be look into so we did.We never said that we are going to buy the simulator or any other product.What we did ask for is support and we got two clubs Howard and I and one other club.The rest have either declined or never even replied to the request.
Hence my statement that its seems that the field would rather bitch about the issues at hand than to find a solution to them.

[North of 7]

Sorry Lee as I think ORA is doing a good job.
Like government some things are hard to change and slow at best.
More important is that the clubs use information and get it right the first time.
I do know that Bancroft club is trying to address this issue with in the money limitations of the club.

Jim

[3 black dogs]

Jim my reply was at the community in general not you.ORA has decided to do something about the noise maker issue.As it was broughgt to us as an issue that needed to be look into so we did.We never said that we are going to buy the simulator or any other product.What we did ask for is support and we got two clubs Howard and I and one other club.The rest have either declined or never even replied to the request.
Hence my statement that its seems that the field would rather bitch about the issues at hand than to find a solution to them.

Lee not everyone bitches There is the same few who are always voicing thier issues and it will not matter how much you and the ORA do they will never be happy and continue to bitch. As far as supprting the purchase of noise makers MVRTC does not have the extra money to donate right now.

Chris

[Lpgar]

Lee

The ORA noisemaker request is on the agenda of Long Point's next meeting. We as a club are being very pro-active with this issue and are buying or have bought a total of 8 new Noisemakers for use this season.

Gar

[krakadawn]

Gar,
Good to see your club looking at this issue.Regardless of what ORA might recommend in the long run,bringing issues like this to the front for more discussion can't help but provide for improvement in the long run for all of us.
We have one of the new noise makers and it will be tested very thoroughly in the next couple of weeks to gain a sense of it's strengths and weaknesses.
From the south-a cool but beautiful sunny day!

Jim