Talking about "area of the fall

[fjnichols]

I was just ruminating on the latest issue of "On Line" and wondered about this scenario.
Lets set up a triple with one or more gunners out. A seasoned dog is sent to a mark with a coat exposed, and runs in a "pleasing manor" directly to the coat, makes a sharp turn, runs straight to the bird picks it up with out a hunt and returns.

How do you judge this mark? Can it be said that the dog "pinned" it, did it go directly to the fall? Or should it be faulted and for what?
Maybe the dog should just be given credit for being WISE in the way of Field Trials, showed "sagacity" and retrieved the bird and be given a TEN.

What do you think?

[Misty Marsh]

I'd say that the dog did not mark the AOF, it ran to the gunnner and winded it or just made the right turn and got the bird. What if the bird was thrown out of a winger or thrown by a 6'6" 240 muscelman who threw it 30 yards out to the AOF, that's not marking? If this was an isolated insident on 1 out of 6+ birds, then OK, but if it was a habit it would be judged for what it is and be graded down accordingly. At the end of the day I want to see a dog that marks, not run to gunner becuase it's safe.

[3 black dogs]

I was just ruminating on the latest issue of "On Line" and wondered about this scenario.
Lets set up a triple with one or more gunners out. A seasoned dog is sent to a mark with a coat exposed, and runs in a "pleasing manor" directly to the coat, makes a sharp turn, runs straight to the bird picks it up with out a hunt and returns.

How do you judge this mark? Can it be said that the dog "pinned" it, did it go directly to the fall? Or should it be faulted and for what?
Maybe the dog should just be given credit for being WISE in the way of Field Trials, showed "sagacity" and retrieved the bird and be given a TEN.

What do you think?

What do you mean by seasoned ? through transision or all age competitor or HRC hunt test seasoned?? what order did the birds go down in and how far is the mark ? What obsticals are in the way enroute to the mark ? all these will play a part in judging this.

The dog did not pin the mark but would not be scored as high as a dog that goes directly to the fall. If this is a young dog not a big deal same as hooked guns some folks make more out of it than need be.

Chris

[captainjack]

I don't see the problem - bird shot and bird retrieved in a pleasing manner. Score the dog and carry on.
Did it mark the bird? Of course it did. Why did it run at the gun? - who knows? Did it go directly to the area of the fall - of course it did. I repeat, I don't see the problem.

Peter.

[creekflyer]

I don't see the problem - bird shot and bird retrieved in a pleasing manner. Score the dog and carry on.
Did it mark the bird? Of course it did. Why did it run at the gun? - who knows? Did it go directly to the area of the fall - of course it did. I repeat, I don't see the problem.

Peter.

So Peter would you say running at the gun is not a fault? As long as the dog comes up with the bird in a pleasing manner. Because in training I never let the dog run at the gun is this wrong? Thanks Tom

[LeeW]

So Peter would you say running at the gun is not a fault? As long as the dog comes up with the bird in a pleasing manner. Because in training I never let the dog run at the gun is this wrong? Thanks Tom

Is the dog running at the gun or failing to fight a factor ? wind, slope , ect .

[kawarthalabs]

In the all age stakes running at or to the gunner is the least of your problems. It seems as though this discussion could go the way of scoring lines as opposed to scoring the mark. Same mark but dog is equal distance outside the mark but does the same thing and hooks in to the bird and picks it up. What's the difference? I'm with Peter-no difference,dog completed a nice retrieve,now onto the next bird or series.By the end of the trial or test there will be much bigger fish to fry than this.
Tony.

[jiggy]

Some of the best markers I've ever seen (FC's/FTCH's) were gun runners. That is just how some dogs mark.
Just like some dogs go wide into their marks...each dog has its own inherent marking style.
Just my opinion of course.
Marcy

[captainjack]

Tom, running at the gun is not a fault as others have pointed out. It can be outscored and it can also cause a dog to hunt out of the area ie. on the wrong side of the gun if it has forgotten the mark which will lower the score for hunting out of the area.
In training, I also work on not running at the gun but to the mark which includes fighting factors to get to the mark.
At a field trial, you judge what the dog has done and if the dog bounces off the station to the mark the power to it. In field trials we are often talking about long marks, hard marks to get to and interacting marks and factors. How many times have the open handler crossed their fingers on a long retired and hoped that the dog locates the holding blind and hunts up the mark. In many opens, this can get you the win.

[creekflyer]

Thanks guy's just trying to understand how how marks are scored at a field trial. Yes Lee it could be any of the things you listed. Thanks again guys Tom

[Misty Marsh]

You can't say the dog pinned, or even marked the bird if it's truly running to he gunner and only remembering which side of the gunner it was thrown to. Is it "pleasing", well that's in the eye of the beholder, not to me unless it's an isolated case and the dog succumed to factors in the mark. It has to be graded down and although many have earned a FC that way, it's not something I embrace.

[Lpgar]

I also really have no problems with a Dog that ends up running at a gun.....Now if it habitual sooner or later there will be a short retired infront of a stand out gun after a long Go Bird to sort that habit out.

[Brandoned]

I also do not have a problem with judging a dog that runs at the gun. With that said if another dog goes straight to a bird, he/she should be scored as having a better mark. But then again I have seen some things happen in the last year or so that totally blew my mind when it comes to judging!!

[captainjack]

Misty, unfortunately, I can not agree with you.

Peter

[Jock River]

All things being equal, if twoo dogs have marked well throughout a trial and the only difference was one dog ran at a couple of guns, well that little glich will cost him the win, so of course we should train our dogs not to run at the gun, but they will all do it at some point and I would not crucify a dog for it when judging. It would become a footnote and could become the difference maker at the end of the day.
Cheers
Trevor

[Jock River]

Same with a clean hook. just a footnote.
Trevor

[Labber]

Just an observation here. In the 5 trials I've attended, in one capacity or another this year, I don't remember thinking to myself that a dog is simply marking off a gun. Not one all age or Qualifying dog gave me this impression.
One dog in the derby yesterday at Central NY, did not see the first bird at all. When sent for it, it ran up the middle of the field, saw the go bird station it had already been to, and said to himself, "time to get the hell out of dodge. " He found the long gunner and then the bird. But this is not marking off a gun. It's training. I know of a dog or two who had a reputation for running at gunners, but that doesn't mean that they didn't mark the bird.
Certainly gunners influence a dogs work, whether in a FT or HT. A dog that makes decisions in the field that happen because of his training, demonstrates a quality that I appreciate.

[Misty Marsh]

Misty, unfortunately, I can not agree with you.

Peter That's cool! Like I said earlier running to a gun once or even twice in a trial is not the end of the world as long as the dog's not using the gun station in leiu of actually taking responsibility for it's marking job. Because in my opinion sooner than later a gun runner will start to get more sloppy and start making the wrong turns and blowing up on retired guns due to laziness and lack of marking effort. At the end of the day the dog that runs guns will not place the same as a dog who marks and runs straight lines to marks, that's just the difference in a FT.