crossing the line

[Anna Scott]

How do you tell someone that they have crossed the line from training to abuse? We train with someone who has come up through the old school of "boot, shoot and electricute". They have been pretty good over the last while but today they lost it. The result was two of the group simply got in they vehicles and left and a third was completely upset. The dog was confused and totally broke down. It took an hour to to straighten the mess out. What do you do with or say to someone to get them to take that step back to regain control and then show the dog what you are asking for and then continue. I know there are times when correction is necessary and we don't always do it but today was an example of how not to use a collar.

[3 black dogs]

First off I am sorry that you had to wittness this. It is nothing I wish to see again if ever. But the first thing would be to get the person in question the put the dog up and take a break for a minute or two to let thier temper settle 9 times out of 10 it is the person not understanding that the dog just maynot know what is being asked of it and the person in question thinks the dog is screwing them over. If they are willing to put the dog up and take 5 then ask them if they are really enjoying training in this manner and that no one is enjoying watching this. This may be a touchy subject but if you can't take a look in the mirror every now and then maybe this isn't for you. As the dog only knows what you have taught it.
In the end the message must be convened that if this is how they are going to conduct themselves they are not welcome in your training group. I know that this type of person makes the whole group uncomfortable and makes the whole day crappy as you never know when it is going to happen.

It is hard to talk to someone like this but it has to be done for the sake of our sport and first and formost the dog they give some much and ask so little in return the most we could do is say something for them when they can't

In todays dog training world there is so much knowledge and info available this type of training is unacceptable.

Chris Bayles

[Sharon]

My approach would be less nice as meanwhile this person is taking their dog home.
Can you imagine what happens in private if this happens in public?

I regularly hear of kids being abused while the neighbours and families walk away and hope it doesn't happen again.
Meanwhile the abuse goes on.

The powerless of our society - dogs or kids, need the brave to come to their rescue.

I would tell this person that I was calling the Humane Sociey and that he should not own a dog.

[Huntmaster]

I Agee with Case, it was your duty and the rest you were with to nip that kind of behavior right then and there. This guy should not own a dog until he gets his head straight. Maybe its time he wore the collar to cure his bad habits. Hope the dog is ok and will REMAIN ok!!! I also am sorry you and your club had to see this, but if you all get together and let this guy know who you feel, I'm sure it will help. Good Luck!! :strangle:

[Sharon]

QUOTE
"the dog totally broke down" Anna

Hope the dog is ok and will REMAIN ok!!! HM


Good post HM but that dog will never be o-kay again.
Totally broke down?? cowering, wetting himself, trembling, throwing up? etc. etc.

I don't think that dog will ever approach training again with any kind of joy or confidence. So we know that continued shockings are in its' future.

One of my dogs was burned a lot as a pup. Took a long time for her to get to the point where she would trust someone. She's turned into a good trialing dog, but when i look at her I often think about what she might have been if...............Every time i see the guy who did it I feel like....

[rocko]

This is extremely bad, especially if there are new people around like myself.

I once saw someone at a test beening overly aggressive to their dog and I thought to myself "ummmm.....i guess thats the way people train their dog to get what they want out of them". Then, out of no where someone clamly spoke to the person and put an end to it.

Doing crap like that, just sends bad vibes and kills the mood for everyone else........

[Kevin Hannah]

It is too bad it had to happen, that being said there are definately times when we use a lot of presure on these dogs. As a trainer I guess you just need to know how much is enough and how much is too much. I think that "at times" a lot of pressure can be justified if you are 100% sure that dog knows exactly what you want, the important thing to recognize is when the dog is confused or lost and when to pull the pin and simplify things FAST and get out of it. I think what you witnessed was someone with there hand on the trigger with there own emotions driving.
Everyone has a different line in the sand as well. I was not there so I am in no way justifying what happened just saying it is no fun to see and I can gaurentee you the individual was not having any fun, it is still supose to be fun after all.

Andy Attar said it great in his DVD, you can jusify a "fair" amount of pressure on a dog but the important thing is to never lose respect for the animal. Once you cross the line with the dog you may never get it back.

One other comment for some of the newer people. You will see a lot of training methods and will get a lot of training advice from people. Just remember that it is your dog and you do what you are comfortable with. The days of "making" these dogs do the work are gone I think. If the dog cannot do something you are asking it to do in all likelyhood "you" have not taught the dog how to do it yet.

Teach, Teach, Teach, Teach and then Test.

Just my opinion,

Kevin

P.S. Anna if you were not comfortable with the events you are probably never going to change the way the guy trains but you can easily keep him off your property and train somewhere else.

[Tim]

Someone that knows this person well needs to have a short conversation with them, short - meaning that there was NO EXCUSE for abusing the dog, period.
No debate, no reasons, it was abuse plain and simple. Retriever clubs do not need people like that, and the retrievers need these idiots even less.
Tim