training question?

[Kern]

My 9 month choc lab will often drop the dummy on the way back to me. Some days I think he is playing a game and will drop it several times running back to it just to circle it and perhaps give it a toss in the air :)

If however I get down on my knee and clap my hands he practilly jumps into my lap deliverying the dummy right at my feet. Im not looking for perfection with a delivery to hand but I suspect he may need to be force fetched trained? Should I try something else before force fetch? Anyone recommend a book or CD for force fetch? I heard about the Smartwork series?? Would that be a good start??

Thanks
Kern

[Kevin Hannah]

Force Fetch will solve your problems.

Here is the FF program I like,

http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html

http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html


Here is a link to another thread on the board about FF info.

http://www.canadianhuntingdogs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12

Kevin

[franklauzon]

Force Fetch is deffinitely the cure, that being said if for some reason you don't want to go through the entire FF process, at least teach and use hold.

[Kern]

I dont have any problems with FF but I was just wondering....Ive read where some people think its cruel. What I havent read though is if you dont subscribe to the FF methods, how do you train a pup to not "doddle" on the way back with the dummy.

I picked up a book this week by Bill Tarrant that details the FF training steps and intend to start this weekend. Did u guys use a table?

Kern

[3 black dogs]

The FF is a bond,a journey you will take with your dog. you both will learn from this and gain respect for each other and your pup will work alot better for you when you are finished . Force fetch is not a harsh treatment as some think it is used in all sorts of dog training basically any dog sport that the dog has to work away from the handler you will see the dogs force fetched. You even see it in compettion obediance. Most of the time when you hear people talking it down iy is only because they don't know or understand the process and what the end result is.

Chris

[warren]

I am not trying to be antagonistic, as I know FF is a fundamental building block for many retriever trainers on this continent. I have no issues with FF. It must work very well as it is regarded so highly here.
The question was asked so I thought I'd stick my aor in.
There are people who successfully train their dogs to high a standard without the use of FF. It "probably" takes more time with many dogs and perhaps you will "not always" get the snappy delivery required for succesful field trial competition. But there are other ways to make your dog excited about bringing in the dummy to you, treats, clicker training, praise, the sight of a goose wing are a few examples.
You can drop all these over time as the dog learns to be perfect. It is only 9 months after all.

Oh and running away as it come to you is a good one.

[warren]

Thought I better check out my theory so went out into the yard with my dog:
Heres at little intro also so that you know I'm no expert.

This is wilma, my lab mix. I know the father and some of the mothers breeding but as you can see, like her owner, she is not perfect.
I am from England living in Quebec (possibly due to bad karma). This is my first attempt at training a dog to work with a gun. Wilma is 9 months and is doing pretty good at yard work, understanding whistle commands and basic hand signals, although the distance I can send her back is only about 45 yards. The rest she does on her nose.
Most of what we have learn't we have gathered from the people on this and one or two other forums. So thanks.

Here she is in the yard about 20 minutes ago.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l182/wabriggs/wilma9mnths1.jpg

Here she is stopped on the whistle on the way in at about 15 feet out. I feel so proud when she stops on the whislte.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l182/wabriggs/wilma9mnths2.jpg

Oh she dropped the dummy after about 10 seconds. If she does this with a live duck I'l go straight to force fetch.

warren

[AD18]

Crystal ball. Your dog will drop the bird. Your dog will play with it or chew on it. You will wish you did FF sooner. Add a wet duck, in water, and the result will be magnified exponentially. Been there, done that:emmbarassed: Save yourself the headaches and hassle and do it now. Between 6-9 months is perfect time. If you want even a marginal retriever do FF, it's THAT important.

[Kevin Hannah]

Crystal ball. Your dog will drop the bird. Your dog will play with it or chew on it. You will wish you did FF sooner. Add a wet duck, in water, and the result will be magnified exponentially. Been there, done that:emmbarassed: Save yourself the the headaches and hassle and do it now. Between 6-9 months is perfect time. If you want even a marginal retriever do FF, it's THAT important.

Agree completely:spoton:

[Anna Scott]

Have not met a young lab that has not played dunk the bird just out of reach. Have the wet shoes and cloths to prove. Get to the FF as soon as you can it clears up a a whole wack of problems.

[3 black dogs]

With out sounding like a smart ass what is the desired end result for this dog? to go out and pick up ducks 2-3 times a hunting season? or to have a well trained hunting companion who you will be more than proud to take out hunting knowing that he is going to go out every time and bring back the birds every time. with out you yelling at him in the marsh and me or many other guy's in the bilnd across the way wishing you would shut up and stop flaring the birds that are coming in at the same time your dog will not come all the way in and you are out front of the blind right up to the top of your hip waders contempalting using that last 3 inch # 2 on the dog and yelling at him at the top of your voice and by the way your voice carries farther than you think in the wee hours of the morning. Any way there are a couple of dogs that are running at a master level I say that gritting my teeth if you have seen what they have gone through to get there and how they work compaired to a properly FF dog. Choose your route But I have seen pretty much all the dogs of the fellows responding to your question except for the english french person and in the pictures the dog is only in the back yard not in the water with a real bird and away far enough from the handler to do the old your not the boss of me now trick. Any way what I am trying to say is the proof is in the pudding all these dogs have been through it and work very well and with alot less hassle in the end.

Thats all I have to say Happy training

Chris

[warren]

Hi 3 black dogs.
Not sure if your post was directed at me but here goes:
I put the pictures up ( as I think I described) to show the limited experience I have training for gundog work. I'm not even using a real retriever for goodness sake. LOL!
But I still enjoy giving an opinion based on the limited experience I have. I think if you read my post I am not trying to sound like I know a great deal. And again there are many training techniques out there.
As for shouting at dogs across a marsh or where ever I think you may be alluding to a particular type of "trainer" and not a particular type of training.
It all depends on what you want from your dog and how patient you are I suppose.

warren

[franklauzon]

What Chris is saying about yelling is come hunting season, when you have a duc down, you'll be sitting on shore yelling regardless... Force Fetching, does many things, and one of the biggest things it does is teach the dog pressure, and how to handle it properly... It really turns the switch on for most dogs.

[Eric B]

Personally I've never met nor heard of anyone who has not FF their dog and competed at a high level. Then again I don't know everyone.

I believe what 3Black Dogs is referring to and I could be wrong. You could have the best performing dog in training but come the day you shoot a bird and the dog goes out and picks up the warm crippled bleeding strong smelling duck/goose, chances are it's going the other way with its prize.

This happened to me with my first dog and a crippled goose. She had never been on a goose before let alone a crippled one. She swam to the fall and had no clue how to handle the giant. A simple reminder of "Fetch" and she was on her way back. No yelling, no raise in blood pressure and most of all my buddies shot 2 more geese as she picked up the bird.:nice work:

[rocko]

Just remember, Force Fetch is not a miracle cure!!

[Kevin Hannah]

I don't think anyone is saying that it is a mirical cure for anything. As far as I am concerned it is just one of the normal steps in training a good field dog.
I have never ran into too many people over the years that said "man I really wish I never force fetched that dog".
More often you talk to people that tried to get away with not doing it only to do it later and saying "man I wish I had of force fetched him 6 months ago"

JMHO,

Kevin

[franklauzon]

"man I really wish I never force fetched that dog".


Too true Kevin, and well said!

[rocko]

^^^^ Excatly! Its just a normal step in training.

[3 black dogs]

Hi 3 black dogs.
Not sure if your post was directed at me but here goes:
I put the pictures up ( as I think I described) to show the limited experience I have training for gundog work. I'm not even using a real retriever for goodness sake. LOL!
But I still enjoy giving an opinion based on the limited experience I have. I think if you read my post I am not trying to sound like I know a great deal. And again there are many training techniques out there.
As for shouting at dogs across a marsh or where ever I think you may be alluding to a particular type of "trainer" and not a particular type of training.
It all depends on what you want from your dog and how patient you are I suppose.

warren

My post wasn't directed at anyone sorry if taken other wise I just see to many people out strugling with thier dogs because they don't take the time or think they are being cruel to the dog buy not training properly. Give the dog the tools to do the job Properly that is all I was trying to convey.

Chris

[warren]

Thanks Chris, point taken.

[warren]

Chris, ( 3 black dogs) et al,

finally took your advice and am finishing up transitioning ear pinch to e collar. It went great! You can lead me to water but don't hold ya breath for me to drink.
:cheesy:

cheers!

[fjnichols]

I attended a seminar with Graham Evan on FF and I liked his approach. He demo'ed on a untrained dog using the e-collar and the dog was very responsive. Some handlers don't like the "ear Pinch " method so this is an alternative.

[Misty Marsh]

"AHH Yes" the force fetch or not to force fetch question! My basic spin on it is that "almost" any dog that will pick up birds be it hunting 4 times a year or competing every other weekend will benifit from a complete FF program. FF does much more than teach a dog to do something that it does naturally, it establishes the perameters of the retrieve, avoids many usual pitfalls, establishes the pecking order of the team and that the commands carry weight and repramand. I believe that it makes going, picking up, holding a bird, and delivering it to hand a automatic response. People who feel that it's painful, stressful, and abusive to the dog need to look at the whole picture becuase personally I would rather deal with it in 2-3 weeks and have a problem free lifetime with the dog. And while it is stressful to the dog anyone who is is really causing the dog pain that borders on abusive is not doing it properly.

[deb]

While I agree FF should be part of the program I think there is more to this than just FF. I don't believe this dog truly understands that come/here means come/here. You also need to reinforce your obedience especially come/here. If the dog has gone out and picked up the bird and starts to play on the way back that is noncompliance of come/here.
deb

[just chessies]

Obedience and force fetch is the foundation for everything you do with a retriever in regard to FT/HT/WC. or when you just want the dang dog to come to you with a bird when hunting.

[Huntmaster]

I never had to FF my dogs before, I did make them hold and such until they got the idea that's what I wanted. It took a few years of hunting to get results.
When I started with CKC and HRC events and this board, I soon learned the values of FF. (thanks everyone). I like how Misty Marsh high lighted the word COMPLETE FF TRAINING, to many people think once a dog will hold and fetch a dummy from there hand, FF is over and the dog is ready. NOT TRUE!!!
Complete Force Fetching your dog has many rewards like, being able to deliver pressure such as healing stick, ear pinch, choke collar, E collar, Its a prefect opportunity to use all these forms of pressure that you will need down the road. FF is a great way to stop a dog from shopping the pile and make a clean quick pick up. Another plus in FF is getting a proper sit from your dog while training the FF you will have control to make the dog sit straight not on one hip, I don't think there is anything uglier then a dog that sits to the side not on its butt.
I think FF will cure all these habits so you wont have to teach them separately. I also feel FF gives a dog more confidents and speed.

I don't believe the part about it being cruel, uncomfortable yes Cruel no. I have sit with my five dogs in house and trained hold and fetch, I use a beer cap with light pressure. My dogs will line up waiting for a turn even knowing what's in store for them, they just want to get the bird!

[Wayne Dibbley]

FF discussion

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30011

[warren]

oops. Posted my edits twice

[warren]

I originally resurrected this thread to let the people know that told me a year ago to FF my dog that I eventually came to understand that they were in my case right. Not that I thought they were wrong in the first place.

What I did not understand was with whole FF/force/pressure conditioning techniques is - that they are used as part of a program. That the program is laid out and that if you follow the program it will make the handlers and dogs life easier and not more stressful.

It was not until we started to get into more repetative drills that I realised my dog was not "always" going to do these for love. And in that, it was going to take a long time to really advance her skills. So after a lot of thought, the dog was 23 months, I decided to go the FF route.
I purchased Evan Grahams training materials. I already had Lardy videos but not his FF. And his material never really gelled with me anyway.
I must say that Evan made the whole process very clear. We were through hold, FF and transition to e collar in a relatively stress free 3 weeks. I had to use very little pressure and few of my initial concerns were warranted with this dog.

The change I have seen in my dog since going to force to pile is great and for such a short investment of my time.

I think the biggest gain is that it has took the thought out of her head shall I go this time or not. She can now just get on with the cast and enjoy it.

I know a lot of people don't need to wait 23 months to start FF but I'm very glad I waited till I had a better understanding of how it would help. I certainly learn't in the process and my dog was fully ready.

thanks again.

[warren]

FJ nicols,

Evan uses the ear pinch method and transitions to e collar in his SmartFetch training material. In the video he states that you can use e collar only but that that is not his preferred method.

[warren]

Wayne Dibbly,

this may seem like a contradiction but I also agree with Eugene Molleys (Colonell Blimb) post in your thread. I just don't have the skills to practice what he preaches and am no longer convinced its necessary.