Training platforms

[Huntmaster]

I was going to make up some training platforms out of Styrofoam, thinking they would be much lighter. I was going to add a rope handle with indoor-outdoor carpet on top to keep the dog from ruining it, but was told it only comes in 2" not 4". Not a big problem, I would just glue 2 together, but for a 2'x8'x2" sheet it was $20. I want to make at lease 8 of them. Maybe I will have to stick with making them out of 2x4 and plywood. Anyone got any ideas for material to make these lighter, and cheeper?

[franklauzon]

What the hell are these training platforms?!? And you need 8 of them?

Not sure what you're using, but colorplast is strong, could use that...

[Eric B]

He's got a chocolate, they have sensitive paws.:1:

So what are they for?

[Huntmaster]

What the hell are these training platforms?!? And you need 8 of them?

Not sure what you're using, but colorplast is strong, could use that...

What the hell is Colorplast? ,,,lol,,, The platforms are for training the dog over & back in a baseball set up. They help in getting the dog to stop and be steady until given a new command. You would start off with a set up like 1st, 2nd, 3rd pitchers mound and home plate were you would stand. As the dog gets use to over and back, you can add a platform to 1st, 2nd, 3rd only farther back. This getting the dog to take a command twice. I swear by the baseball technique for starting your dog to learn hand signals. Hope this helps!

Now what the hell is COLORPLAST,,,:icon1_lol:

[3 black dogs]

I don't know anyone who uses this method generally after your dog has been taught obedience and knows sit stay we start by throwing bumpers to a white stake and identifying the pile where you want the dog to go then sitting the dog in the center and giving the desired castwhile doing the start out with short distances. 10 -20 yrds tops the build on this. Your pup is aways from this LOL but you get a A for enthusiasum.

Chris

[Huntmaster]

I don't know anyone who uses this method generally after your dog has been taught obedience and knows sit stay we start by throwing bumpers to a white stake and identifying the pile where you want the dog to go then sitting the dog in the center and giving the desired castwhile doing the start out with short distances. 10 -20 yrds tops the build on this. Your pup is aways from this LOL but you get a A for enthusiasum.

Chris

Chris, Thanks for the A, but is you check you will see the baseball method has been used for many, many, years by some very excellent trainers. One is Richard A Wolters. If you havent read his book, I suggest you do, its a great book. By the way, Steadiness is obedience. The Platform idea is so simple for the dog he doesn't even know he's being taught to Sit, Stay, Heal, back, over and back & over with a stop, sit. Check out this site, there is more to it then just this link so read the next lesson. I would start a 12 week old pup with this method, keeping the diamond close together at first, then moving them farther apart. When the dog understands what I want, I would remove the platforms and train your way with much greater and quicker sucess. Just my opinion. :fencing: check out this site:

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/rjpart4.html

[3 black dogs]

We do use a place board if the dog is having steadying issues and we use the base ball drill we just don't go to the lengths you are going to go. I have read Wolters book and have a copy of the Dobbs book both very good for thier time but things have changed a bit since then.

Good luck with your pup.

Chris

[Huntmaster]

Yes" Water Dog by Richard is kind of old school. But it sounds like you are using a type of baseball set up for your training. Mats are fine, but the dog can creep with out you seeing, I find with the platforms (2'x2' x 4" high) verses the mat teaches the dog, STAY means stay and sit means sit,where on a platform he has to stay or he gets a burn. Real bonus for when its time to train for walk ups and honors. The reason I like the platform 3" high is so the dog can pin point it easier, and know he is to stay on the platform (all 4 paws) untill given the next command. Checked out your site, you have some great dogs with excellent pedigrees, Im sure I could learn a lot by you. :spoton:

[krakadawn]

Lots of interesting comments/approaches being shared. The real question to be examined is how do you approach and what handling drills do you use to move from the very mechanical 'baseball' level to the refined levels required by todays all age retrievers.My pups are usually well into various advanced drills by the time they are 10-12 mos.
The inverted 'V' and the 'W' patterns will begin to prepare for handling required. Very seldom do you see 'over' casts being used other than to fight a significant factor that your dog is showing an inabilty to negotiate-ie wind,slope,cover.
If one considers what a 'window' for any given blind should look like you are probably in alot of trouble if 'over' casts are required as opposed to handling earlier for line correction.
A recent article in Online showing/discussing literal casting is excellent-I believe the title was 'Ahalf truth is a whole lie" where Dennis discusses the importance of this type of casting and the adherence to a high standard.
A number of folks no longer teach what has been traditionally considered 'Baseball'
Good luck with your dogs.

[3 black dogs]

Great post Jim

We do the v patern and w drill as the dogs get through the t work and very seldom do we use an over as you basically have doug yourself into a hole if you need to while handling your dog in todays trials.

Chris

[Kevin Hannah]

Good post Jim, Does anyone have any links or pictures that show these drills and the layout for any of the people on the board that are not sure how they work or are done?

Kevin

[Huntmaster]

Lots of interesting comments/approaches being shared. The real question to be examined is how do you approach and what handling drills do you use to move from the very mechanical 'baseball' level to the refined levels required by todays all age retrievers.My pups are usually well into various advanced drills by the time they are 10-12 mos.
The inverted 'V' and the 'W' patterns will begin to prepare for handling required. Very seldom do you see 'over' casts being used other than to fight a significant factor that your dog is showing an inabilty to negotiate-ie wind,slope,cover.
If one considers what a 'window' for any given blind should look like you are probably in alot of trouble if 'over' casts are required as opposed to handling earlier for line correction.
A recent article in Online showing/discussing literal casting is excellent-I believe the title was 'Ahalf truth is a whole lie" where Dennis discusses the importance of this type of casting and the adherence to a high standard.
A number of folks no longer teach what has been traditionally considered 'Baseball'
Good luck with your dogs.

Hi Jim, I don't understand how you can call the baseball drill, very mechanical. And moving on from this form of training is as easy as removing the platforms after your dog knows hand signals and other basics. Your dog should be ready to move on at age 16 weeks, leaving 6-8 months by your standards to train The inverted 'V' and the 'W' patterns. It also sounds like you are trying to say a dog doesn't need to be taught over and back casts with today's all age retrievers, because if a dog cant take a line with out additional cast, your in trouble.
How do you get through senior and master with out this on blind retrieves. All I'm trying to say, is the Baseball set up is a quick way to teach your dog the basics at an early stage, they also love the platforms and find the game fun if done right. There is a big time frame between the ages I said and what you said. I'm not a rookie to training a good hunting dog, but I'm a real rookie when it come to Trials and hunt tests. So by all means help me to understand, because right now I don't and will make my Platforms like I have in the past. :confused: Thanks, Jim

[franklauzon]

The article in online was indeed very interesting, expecially for someone just getting started. I have to agree with Chris that using platforms is an older technique, doesn't make in inefficient, just not really necessary now a days. I have a dog that I wasn't overly "steady" with, and she's done okay with no platforms...

Might be worth buying the lardy total retriever training, or Evan Grahams program with some of those winnings! I'd like to get my hands on Lardy's traiing articles, but I wanna buy a 500G2 to replace my 200G2

This is coroplast, sorry sp was wrong
http://coroplast.cat-x.net/CategoryListView.aspx?id=1

[krakadawn]

Huntmaster,
The reason I referred to ,baseball, or "T" work as mechanical as it is at the very beginning stage of teaching handling skills to retrievers(in my case).The other reason is that skills at this level alone will not prepare either you or the dog to be competitive in all age stakes in retriever trials.My point was to help folks understand that there is much more required to enhance handling skills and that the T work is at the beginning stage.The other reason was to generate discussion on what drills enhance beyond the beinnings.
My suggestion regarding over casts had nothing to do with back casts being not important as they certainly are. Strong lining skills and handling skills are required by todays dogs if one wishes to be competitive. I guess the main point here is the move to 'literal' casting quite simply meaning take the cast as given whether it would be 45 degrees back or an 80 degree cast and that being the exact direction that the handler believes the dog should take to advance to the blind. The traditional baseball will not get you here.
We often see handlers giving a cast in a trial which hopefully would not be the cast used in running a blind in training-hence the article "Ahalf truth is a whole lie" which appeared in a recent 'Online" article, simply meaning don't lie to your dog it will cause you considerable problems in handling-ie scalloping casts etc.
If you are having success by all means continue-it was not my position to be contradictory but only to further the discussion that was somehat bogged down on the total perspective of the acquistion of handling skills.
A few years ago I assisted in a retriever workshop put on by Jamie Balesdent and Dennis Voigt-one of the exercises was a blind-I was the dog, Dennis the handler,I knew where I was ultimately to go but there was a game plan to allow all the participants to be involved.AS I would vere off the line he would whistle a sit- the participants would then cast me with what they believed was the correct cast-you really don't want to know what that looked like-quite a lively discussion with people standing hands still in the air.
Why I am not adamant about over casts is simply that my preference would be to stop my dog prior to him/her getting that far off line,the cast then would be a literal(exact/correct) correcting the line more quickly and advance to the blind.In most situations when an over is used in a trial things are not usually going well.
Good Luck in training.

[Kevin Hannah]

Another good post Jim, wouldn't it be nice for handlers if Dennis was still doing his seminars. I was booked to go to one of his last spring when he had to cancel them all. But that is another thread all together.

Thanks,

Kevin

[Huntmaster]

Jim, I think I'm starting to get the picture, but still really confused. I think you are saying the baseball might create popping and fear in my dog to trust his nose, wanting help for every retrieve. One cast, one line and let the dog do what it does best, trust the handler, take the line and use his nose for the rest. I have only run one hunt test (JR) So what's in the future for me and my dogs might be affected by the baseball training. Looks like I'm going to need a lot of help from Kevin and the rest of the HRC club members. I got a puppy on the way and keeping a puppy from Kaliska's litter. I will be very happy if these fine dogs get their Finished and Masters. So your help is appreciated very much. But I'm going to be dead in the water if I don't come up with another style of training. The baseball method was my foundation to training a good hunting partner. Experience and desire to hunt always finished the dog.

franklauzon: I will look into Lardy's, because right now I'm completely lost. Never was a Baseball fan anyway, Football is where its at, and those boys know how to run a line,,,:cheesy:

[Eric B]

Huntmaster,

I am using Evan Grahams :"Smart Works" approach. I am currently in the middle of doing TT work Cole and it is going well.

[krakadawn]

Huntmaster,
Join Kevin and his group-I'm sure he will clean up any questions you have and give you a sense of process in this area.Lardy/Graham both excellent resources.I was not suggesting that 'baseball' would cause the potential problems you suggested-they both can come out of a variety things. Stay the course if your dog is learning and progressing to a high standard with his casting.I guess the main point here is that "baseball' as a stand alone process will not allow you to move toward a more advanced/refined level for both of you. Where you are heading is to be able to give a variety of casts between what we would consider an over and a simple back and each cast would look different to communicate to your dog where he is going-none of the above is meant to suggest that a dog would not use his natural abilities enroute to a blind.
Training groups are a great asset for all of us-hopefully you can find one close to you. I'm in the Belleville area-you're welcome to join us if/when you can;however I'll be away for the next two weeks.
Keep Training!

[Huntmaster]

Thanks Jim, by the way my name is Tom and I hope to meet you at one of the meets. Belleville is not far from me, I live in Gananoque (1000islands). I will be at the CKC hunt test this week-end held at Marion & Henry's in Belleville. I did join Kevin's group about a month ago. They are excellent guys and girls to work with. I have already started to explore the web on T & W training, plus some great stuff on swim by's. I'm sure the gang will point me in the right direction, same as you have. Got to train the trainer before you can train the dog! I will make sure I'm up on all the new methods before the arrival of my two new CHOCOLATE,,,lol,,, pups! You take care, and thanks again. Tom & Cathy :spoton:

Eric B, I looked up some free stuff from Evan Grahams, and it looks pretty good.

franklauzon, Ive heard a lot about Lardy's training methods, and they were all good. I will also check him out. Thanks all. :nice work:

[krakadawn]

Huntmaster,

Good to meet you Tom-you have a very positive approach,this will help as you begin this journey. I know Henry but won't be there-say hello for me-we are leaving in the am. for the National Amateur in Manitoba.
All the best in training.
Jim

[Kevin Hannah]

Good luck in Manitoba Jim, I was wondering if any of you were heading out.

The web site is still only listing the qualifiers not the entrys yet.

Kevin