Just wondering if this has ever been an issue with anyone else.

[Eric B]

Something I am noticing during T . Currently I run 2 sessions of T with a max of 6 bumpers in each session. Lately I have been noticing that Cole is not holding the bumper firmly in his mouth and is starting to cigar and drop them after he has retrieved about 4 bumpers. He has also started to slow down his pace around the same time he is not holding the bumpers properly. I suspect he is getting bored because when it is time to throw a fun bumper this is not an issue. He blazes out to the bumper picks it up and returns back equally as fast.

[franklauzon]

LOL! I think everyone sees cigaring at one point or another in training... Personally I let it go as it's not an issue with birds... I also find the Hexabumpers don't have this problem. I find with Piper once her mouth is full of slime the bumpers slide around more...

I've read others fight with it, and review FF and what not, and others just let it be since it is more or less a losing battle, and as far as I'm concerned a non issue... I choose to let it be until the time she messes around with a bird...

Regarding the slowing down thing, if he still has LOTS of steam in him which he should after 4 retrieves, and he's just slowing down cuz he can here nick here... Use the damn collar man.

[Huntmaster]

Eric B, you say the dog is cigaring and dropping the bumper, I think you need to work more on force fetch, and if the dog has already been FF, its time to correct this with the collar before it becomes a habit. I agree with Frank about the Hex bumpers, I watched Kevins dog pick 6 Hex bumpers out of a pile of eight before wanting the other two that were different. Depending on how long between the two sessions of T with a max of 6 and the age of your dog, it might be its to much for him and is boring, remember it should be fun. Try 4 and 4. The speed is a good sign he doesnt want to do this any more! the collar can help this, but thats up to you1 I would just back off a bit on how many bumpers I would use! Im a rookie and just saying how I would handle this, listen to the pros, :spoton:

[Huntmaster]

One more thing that might help! If your setting up in the same location every time, the dog can get bored, try different training grounds or at lease change the direction where you are. It will fool the dog and make him think you are doing something different.

[Kevin Hannah]

My one dog does seem to really like the Hexa bumpers. I had about 8 bumpers down in one pile and she brought back all 6 hexa bumpers first. Could just be coincidence but I am going to keep watching and see if she keeps it up.

Kevin

[franklauzon]

Tom, the last thing you want do with T/TT is change locations. The idea is the dog KNOWS where the piles are, and therefore is taking cast, but knows where it is going, if you change locations, you have to start over again.

[franklauzon]

Also Eric, maybe train late evening so you can get 12-15 retrieves in one session...

I don't like giving the dog fun bumpers very often, but Pipers attitude is obviously different from Cole.

[Huntmaster]

Tom, the last thing you want do with T/TT is change locations. The idea is the dog KNOWS where the piles are, and therefore is taking cast, but knows where it is going, if you change locations, you have to start over again.

Frank, what is starting all over, You only have to set out your bumper with your dog at your side, if he has learned anything from your previous setup, then you should be ready to go. I swear by changing location as often as I can. My dog goes nuts when it sees a new field or even the town park! I dont think you would need to go as far back as to throw bumpers to the pile to show the dog where they are, once you have walked him to the pile, but I might be wrong!

[franklauzon]

Firstly, your line to the pile isn't established... If you don't care if you dog runs straight, then I see nothing wrong with just moving along.

I would also suggest changing it up a lot during pattenr blinds... That way you keep the dog on its toes. It would be terrible for the dog to actually catch on and learn the pile... I mean, it wouldn't be blinds otherwise.

The way I see it... The idea here isn't for your dog to have fun. This isn't something that should be miserable either, but the idea is for the dog to do what you want. This isn't a marking drill. You are teaching the dog to handle, and handling is about control. Once the dog is panting hard and doesnt WANT to go over, making it go OVER is a learning opportunity...

[Huntmaster]

Firstly, your line to the pile isn't established... If you don't care if you dog runs straight, then I see nothing wrong with just moving along.

I would also suggest changing it up a lot during pattenr blinds... That way you keep the dog on its toes. It would be terrible for the dog to actually catch on and learn the pile... I mean, it wouldn't be blinds otherwise.

The way I see it... The idea here isn't for your dog to have fun. This isn't something that should be miserable either, but the idea is for the dog to do what you want. This isn't a marking drill. You are teaching the dog to handle, and handling is about control. Once the dog is panting hard and doesnt WANT to go over, making it go OVER is a learning opportunity...

First you said this: Quote: Tom, the last thing you want do with T/TT is change locations. The idea is the dog KNOWS where the piles are, and therefore is taking cast, but knows where it is going, if you change locations, you have to start over again.


Sure got be :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :stirpot:

Then you said: Quote: Once the dog is panting hard and doesnt WANT to go over, making it go OVER is a learning opportunity...

I think you are talking about an advanced dog that is use to pressure and has learned the T long ago. But in most cases a dog learning the T or TT is still a young dog and has not had the amount of pressure you are talking about. I would keep it FUN at this stage, instead of having a pup that ran away when it was time to train. :strangle: LOL,,,

[Kevin Hannah]

T and TT, known piles established to help TEACH a dog to handle.

Changing locations would require you re-TEACH and establish your back pile and crossovers. Once the dog has learned the skills TT teaches moving on to pattern blinds will help establish momentum for cold blind work.

Hope this clears a little bit of the debate up.

Kevin

[Kevin Hannah]

I think you are talking about an advanced dog that is use to pressure and has learned the T long ago. But in most cases a dog learning the T or TT is still a young dog and has not had the amount of pressure you are talking about. I would keep it FUN at this stage, instead of having a pup that ran away when it was time to train.

You have to intriduce and teach them how to deal with pressure in this type of environment so that they understand the pressure or correction in the field. If they don't understand the correction then they are not learning anything from it.

Kevin

[franklauzon]

I'll tell you with all the Rex Carr based programs I've seen

Lardy
Stawski
Graham

TT is right before Swimby and Blinds... If the dog hasn't had pressure via FF, CC, FTP, you did something wrong...

TT is one of the last steps in basics before transition... when is the proper time to apply pressure then?

[Huntmaster]

Kevin & Frank, I understand your points here, but the age of the dog is very important. I did tell Eric B that the collar could be used to apply pressure. But had the picture of a young dog in my head, because he was having cigaring and drop bumper issues, making me think we are dealing with a young dog. The dog might be playing him here, and if so more pressure would be needed, but I would be careful on how much pressure depending on age and desire to work. I should not have said T and TT, just T.

Frank I agree pressure should be applied in every training exercise, but try to do it so the dog doesn't know you are doing it, that is a trick we all should try to learn. but I think maybe I'm to soft with my dog and should listen to you and Kevin. Kevin, what advise do you have for Eric B?

[luvmylabs]

I'll tell you with all the Rex Carr based programs I've seen

Lardy
Stawski
Graham

TT is right before Swimby and Blinds... If the dog hasn't had pressure via FF, CC, FTP, you did something wrong...

TT is one of the last steps in basics before transition... when is the proper time to apply pressure then?

Frank,

You HAVE been applying pressure if you have been following the progrem of FF CC, FTP and forcing at the beginning of TT. You don't want to overuse the pressure on a young dog or you could get all kinds of unpleasant reactions. The only thing you enforce is Stop, Go, Come. I don't see where the dog is doing anything that wrong to deserve a collar correction. So, after 4 sends he slows down and messes with the bumper. With the higher heat and humidity, he might be getting tired. If the TT is 100+ yds. and Eric is sending back to back for 6 bumpers, you would slow down too after 4. He might be bored, he might be hot, and tired, he might just hate drills. Some dogs do. You have to understand your dog and use what is appropriate. He might be slowing down because he is getting tired. Young dogs especially will mess with the bumper when they get hot and tired. Nicking him is not going to fix the problem. All you would be doing is confusing him. All he understands at this point is go, stop and come. Nicking him for not coming in fast enough could cause popping, no-goes or bugging. JMO

Anne

[franklauzon]

Tom, I train weekly with Eric, so I have the unfair advantage of knowing his dog, but regardless, anydog that is doing T, or TT, is going to be old enough to handle pressure, and should have been introduced to pressure...

Regarding the cigaring, it's really not a big issue for most people. You can go back to the bench and review all you want, how do you correct for cigaring? Command hold and nick, well the dog is already cigaring... It's just not a battle worth fighting... usually... Personally if this carries over into birds, the dog will get a mighty good reminder.

Regarding indirect pressure, it's good for getting the desired reaction, while not beating on a dog, for example if the dog is not taking a cast, sit nick sit, granted... but if you've been going to the back pile for 5 days in a row, and dog doesn't that avoidance, and then it's back nick back... There is a time and place for indirect, but the dog needs to understand direct pressure.

[franklauzon]

Hey Anne,

I was being sarcastic with the when do you apply pressure thing, so Tom would understand what I was saying.

If you re-read my initial post I prefaced the here nick here with "Regarding the slowing down thing, if he still has LOTS of steam in him which he should after 4 retrieves, and he's just slowing down cuz he can here nick here... Use the damn collar man."

In my "program" you correct for lack of effort, nothing else. If the dog takes a wrong cast that's fine, move up, try again, again, indirect pressure... To me if a dog is "fresh" and not coming in, that's lack of effort. You mentioned yourself you correct for go stop come... the dog slowing down is part of come.

[franklauzon]

Tom seeing you say "I should not have said T and TT, just T." gets me wondering... What is T to you... is T Three Handed casting, or an actual T where you are 75 yards away from the dog and taking casts?

[luvmylabs]

Something I am noticing during T . Currently I run 2 sessions of T with a max of 6 bumpers in each session. Lately I have been noticing that Cole is not holding the bumper firmly in his mouth and is starting to cigar and drop them after he has retrieved about 4 bumpers. He has also started to slow down his pace around the same time he is not holding the bumpers properly. I suspect he is getting bored because when it is time to throw a fun bumper this is not an issue. He blazes out to the bumper picks it up and returns back equally as fast.

Eric,

A question, how long have you been doing T? Is it the short T or the long TT? How far have you gotten in it? How well has your dog advanced? If you have been doing it for a week or two and the dog is doing everything you have taught him without mistakes or with only one or two, then move on. If you are staying on it after he understands, it could be boredom. Some people believe a dog has to do everything perfect before you move on. That is not always the case. If the dog understands to line up, go straight through, stops on the whistle reliably, will take a cast where directed 90% of the time, and isn't popping, then move on. Most field dogs are pretty intelligent. Once they learn something, you need to keep challenging them or they become bored. I have one that would do the same drill all day. She loves drills. She is the ONLY one of all my dogs that does. The rest get bored after a while of doing the same thing. Chasing after a happy bumper really doesn't count as most dogs would chase a happy bumper supposing they were going to collapse from heat exhaustion. Some dogs can stand the heat and humidity better than others. Know your dog. Good luck.

Anne

[Tim]

Hey Anne,



In my "program" you correct for lack of effort, nothing else. If the dog takes a wrong cast that's fine, move up, try again, again, indirect pressure... To me if a dog is "fresh" and not coming in, that's lack of effort. You mentioned yourself you correct for go stop come... the dog slowing down is part of come.

Frank, that is right on in my opinion
Using the collar for a mistake won't teach a dog anything and could destroy the confidence the dog has in the handler. Now for a lack of effort, that's another issue. I think a dog that takes a cast, even a wrong one, is usually giving the handler an effort.

[franklauzon]

will take a cast where directed 90% of the time

Thank you so much for posting that Anne!!

I've been telling Eric the 80% Rule, which is what I've read, and seen in the videos, but he wouldn't listen!!

You been told! Now listen to the lady!

[franklauzon]

Tim,

I could agree more about the wrong cast being effort, simply misguided effort...

Let's say you get the wrong cast move up, try again, still wrong cast move up to where the dog should take it no problem, still no, indirect pressure, still won't take the proper cast, take a look in the mirror and make sure you are giving a good cast, good background and all that, and if that passes inspection you can increase indirect pressure.

If you are at the END of TT, and the dog has been doing this for 2-3 weeks, if the dog is snubbing you, I would not hisitate to give direct pressure from real close.

[Huntmaster]

i took your advise and took my dog out to show her who was boss, damned if she didnt run into the house and when i got there, this is what I found!!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/goinggoingsold/Kaliska2/IMG_0241.jpg

JUST KIDDING WITH YOU GUYS, its going up to 30 plus degrees today, I agree with my dog, stay home and drink cold ones!:darkbeer:

[Tim]

Brown dog, OV beer :der:

Just messin with ya,

[Kevin Hannah]

Something I am noticing during T . Currently I run 2 sessions of T with a max of 6 bumpers in each session. Lately I have been noticing that Cole is not holding the bumper firmly in his mouth and is starting to cigar and drop them after he has retrieved about 4 bumpers. He has also started to slow down his pace around the same time he is not holding the bumpers properly. I suspect he is getting bored because when it is time to throw a fun bumper this is not an issue. He blazes out to the bumper picks it up and returns back equally as fast.

As far as the cigaring, when the dog gets back to you and heals up simply reposition the bumper in it mouth and tell him to hold and then take the bumper, it will likely clean itself up.

As for the pace, just work through it so you know he understands what you are trying to teach him in this drill and move on to pattern blinds and start building the momentum back up again. Don't know how long you have been working on TT but he may be bored with it. Teach the skills and then move on, he doesn't have to be perfect but does need to understand the fundimentals of casting and running blinds. I like to go to pattern blinds and build up some momentum and then start working swim by as the pattern blind progress. This avoids going right from one drill to another as well.

Kevin

[Eric B]

Wow didn't realise the excitment this post would create.. I thought for a second I forgot to put a lead on my dog at the line.:boink: :1:

Great feed back from everyone. Much appreciated. All right I'll try to answer everything in one post.

My dog is 17 months old and has his basic OB, CC (sit, here,heel, back,over), FF, FTP. I will be moving on
to TT tonight. This dog is very obdient and has not missed a cast on T in the last 3 days.

When he goes out or comes back slow I do nick him and he does speed up a bit. This dog has hated bumpers from birth. I've seen this dog nail
a 150 + yard mark in water and push the bumper aside with his nose and continue on past onto land looking for as bird. I can't even switch between
bumpers and birds because everytime I do I have to force(fetch nick fetch) him to the bumper at least once or twice before he realizes that if he
does not he will be corrected.

He's quick on marks and in water he is ok. I do try to correct his holds while I walk with him and try to knock the bumper out of his mouth.
No issues he holds it like a champ.

So I guess what it comes down to is that he is BORED! :sleep1:

[franklauzon]

I thought for a second I forgot to put a lead on my dog at the line.:boink: :1:


I've got tears over here... How do you follow that up...

[rocko]

"Wow didn't realise the excitment this post would create.. I thought for a second I forgot to put a lead on my dog at the line."

Whammy....Zinger!!! LOL....:fencing:

[Huntmaster]

Your dawg sounds great Eric, and it does sound like he is bored and playing you a bit. If you say your giving him a nick here and there then its time to move on like Kevin said. Have you got a picture for us?
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I've got tears over here... How do you follow that up... / Whammy....Zinger!!! LOL.... Who needs a lead when your aloud a Break,,,lol,,,

:icon1_lol: :icon1_lol: :icon1_lol: :icon1_lol:

[Kevin Hannah]

Your dawg sounds great Eric, and it does sound like he is bored and playing you a bit. If you say your giving him a nick here and there then its time to move on like Kevin said. Have you got a picture for us?
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I've got tears over here... How do you follow that up... / Whammy....Zinger!!! LOL.... Who needs a lead when your aloud a Break,,,lol,,,

:icon1_lol: :icon1_lol: :icon1_lol: :icon1_lol:

Bunch a comedians eh Tom :doh:

[Huntmaster]

YEHHH, but good ones,,,:first:

[North of 7]

I feel for a dog that age if he speeds up a bit if you nick him you may be nagging the dog.If the dog knows what is expected I would turn the collar to high take it off nick and make a point.

[captainjack]

I would be very careful with the use of the collar. It is one thing to turn the collar up and make a point - if you know what the point is and the dog knows what point you are trying to make. You may create bigger problems then you now have.