WC - Pointless?

[franklauzon]

Do you run WC events? If so why? If you don't why not? Just getting a feel for a) why there are very few run in my area (only time one runs is in conjunction with a show event), and b) do they have merit in the working dog crowd.

I know some dogs here have them, and I can see myself getting them at say Ducross where I don't have to go far, but is it worth driving 3-4 hours to get one?

[Eric B]

Having just run a WC I feel it would not warrant a 3-4 hour drive. The only reason I ran was because Mike's place is 45 minutes away and I wanted the extra practice handling my dog.

AS far as the test goes, much easier than CKC JH or HRC started.

[AD18]

All the WC titles are a fair bit easier to get than the equivalent CKC and HRC classes. As well you only need one pass to "title". I run them for the fun of it and too let my dogs "see" different setups and cover. A lot of agility and show dogs like to run them because they can put a "hunting" title on their dog for future stud/pup fees. Prospective customers see a "hunting" title and figure the dog is well rounded. I don't make a huge effort to get them, but do go occasionally to support the clubs putting them on. They can be VERY entertaining to watch though.

[Eric B]

They can be VERY entertaining to watch though. AD18 I think you hit on the head :spoton:

[franklauzon]

LOL Al... "They can be VERY entertaining to watch though." You crack me up dude!!

[nimkii]

I was planning on entering a WC event a month ago at Horseshoe, but due to scheduling issues at work was unable to attend. Just more exposure for my dog.

[MHgoldk9]

I myself like the WC program as one of our retriever games.A lot of us ran our first retreiver test at a WC.
WC is a good place to get started in the game,fun to run and somewhere to see how your new young prospect reacts in a trial atmosphere,usually cheaper than a JH or SHR.WCI/X gives you a stepping stone and another venue to play with him before Senior or Seasoned.I've seen some WCX test that were almost as tough as some seniors.
With that said I too likely would not travel that far to run one.

Tim :dog:

[franklauzon]

So the concensus is to run em if they're convenient to do so... ;)

[Hiscoke]

I quite like the WC/I/X program and think that it plays an important role. It fits well with the hunt test program.

Unquestionably, the WC is easier than the JH but I think that, as Tim pointed out, it’s a nice place for people to get started. For people who don’t hunt or who are new to the sport, it’s a level to which they can train their dog with limited grounds, limited help, and without worrying about all the “stuff” that can get thrown at you in hunt tests. Yes, that’s what makes hunt tests fun, but it’s also very intimidating for new people because there is so much that can go on. The WC is doable for most young eager retrievers and I feel it serves as a good introductory level that has encouraged many people to move on in the program as well as to venture into the hunt test game. For $35-40 you can put your first field title on your pup and then you’re hooked!

The WCI introduces the concept of multiples and steadiness and the WCX, the concept of handling. The jump from JH to SH can be huge especially for people who have never taught a dog to handle before. The WCI/X helps to bridge that gap, and again gets people hooked. Like any venue, the difficulty of the test can vary depending on the judges.

Yes, the WC program is used by a lot of conformation folks to claim that their show champions have working ability. But, you know what, in goldens at least there so few people actually working their goldens in the field, that I’m thrilled that people are at least out there doing something involving birds with their dogs. Yes, it would be nice if they'd also try the hunt test program but it does require more training, more grounds,more "stuff" - decoys, calls, shots from the line etc.

It’s true that we don’t have a lot of WC/I/X tests in the Ottawa area - 3 this year. But you know, we don’t have a whole lot of hunt tests either - 4 CKC. We’ve been toying with the idea of holding another hunt test in the area but it's a pretty small field community and finding workers would be tough.

Pam

[Eric B]

Pam, BTW , you and Ross did a great job for GRCC held at Mike's!

I'm not sure if you recall the professional photographer that was there taking pictures? Well, as it turns out he took pics of everyone running. I was intersted in a few pics until I emailed him and got a price.:eek:


8x10...1st $ 26.00 extras $11.00 each of same image ( plus tax)
2- 5x7s $26.00 of same or different image(but same dog and handler) $26.00...extra $11.00 (plus tax)

[Tim]

I quite like the WC/I/X program and think that it plays an important role. It fits well with the hunt test program.

Unquestionably, the WC is easier than the JH but I think that, as Tim pointed out, it’s a nice place for people to get started. For people who don’t hunt or who are new to the sport, it’s a level to which they can train their dog with limited grounds, limited help, and without worrying about all the “stuff” that can get thrown at you in hunt tests. Yes, that’s what makes hunt tests fun, but it’s also very intimidating for new people because there is so much that can go on. The WC is doable for most young eager retrievers and I feel it serves as a good introductory level that has encouraged many people to move on in the program as well as to venture into the hunt test game. For $35-40 you can put your first field title on your pup and then you’re hooked!

The WCI introduces the concept of multiples and steadiness and the WCX, the concept of handling. The jump from JH to SH can be huge especially for people who have never taught a dog to handle before. The WCI/X helps to bridge that gap, and again gets people hooked. Like any venue, the difficulty of the test can vary depending on the judges.

Yes, the WC program is used by a lot of conformation folks to claim that their show champions have working ability. But, you know what, in goldens at least there so few people actually working their goldens in the field, that I’m thrilled that people are at least out there doing something involving birds with their dogs. Yes, it would be nice if they'd also try the hunt test program but it does require more training, more grounds,more "stuff" - decoys, calls, shots from the line etc.

It’s true that we don’t have a lot of WC/I/X tests in the Ottawa area - 3 this year. But you know, we don’t have a whole lot of hunt tests either - 4 CKC. We’ve been toying with the idea of holding another hunt test in the area but it's a pretty small field community and finding workers would be tough.

Pam

Great post.. :spoton:
But what about OVHRC back2back this weekend.:dog:

[franklauzon]

Thanks for the post Pam, that the kind of conversation I was looking to start!

I agree that they do fill in a gap, and very true what you are saying with regards to not needing much to train for them! Never really thought of it as a good way to introduce people to the sport, I thought of it more in the sense of easy/cheap letters ;)

Anything that will help get people into the sport, is certainly a good thing!

If you ever wanna try to get a CKC test going at Mike's, or somewhere in the area, just let me know and I'll be there... I know Kingston HRC only runs a 1 day event, which I imagine would be more manageable... Might be something else worth considering...

Wish I could have attended the WC, but Piper started drip-dripping on the 15th ERG!! You would know nothing of this with your 3 boy dogs! ;p

[Misty Marsh]

"Man" I just got registered on this forum and don't want to tick anyone off starting out in retriever events running WC''s:argue: , but to be perfectly honest I find them to be a place for show people to try and get a shot at making thier dogs "field proven":icon1_lol:. I have WCX titles on my dogs and have run them so take it for what it's worth, but after judging and watching WC dogs I generally find that the owners train for the week prior to the test and have dogs completely blow up on 50 yard marks and get upset! Thier worth in the dog world is less than a CKC JH, but good place to start out.

[krakadawn]

I was somewhat loathe to make any comments as not wanting to offend those who may avail themselves to these levels.If memory serves me right I was part of the first team to write expectations for WC/WCX about 1980 along with Bob Blyth and Sandy Briggs-at that time this was the only option to field trials. We are certainly better off now withother options to play regarding retrievers.At that time there was a strong push from those who show their retrievers to get 'some' level' of a field certificate on their dogs.Our concern then and it still exists today to some degree is that dogs with bench pedigrees canbe misreprepresented to novice buyers believing they are buying a retriever that will be an accomplished hunting retiever for them.This is not to say that show people misrepresent their dogs any more than retrievers born of field (trial) lineage would be.
The absolute truth in the matter is that those seeking dogs who they hope will perform in the field/hide/trial under at times extreme conditions need to look for as strong a field trial/hunt test background as possible and understand the characteristics of individuals in the pedigree enabling the buyer to attempt to make the best decision when buying a puppy.
Today's retriever competitions are certainly much broader in scope and accompanying demands than what existed previously. I still encounter hunters wanting to or have bought a puppy from parent(s) who have one of the basic titles and they believe they have a dog that will do everything and more.They are somewhat deflated when they hear the varied differences existing in today's competitions.
My biases are obvious having competed in field trials over many years .Like most others, my trial dogs were always my hunting companions and they continue to be.

[North of 7]

Now to really stir the pot. I don't agree with some show people passing their dogs off as titled dogs to sell puppies but I also disagree with people that pass their hunt test titles off as FIELD CHAMPIONS as I have seen quite often and then we have UKC tidles that are not reconized by CKC or AKC so are they reconized tidles in a pedagree? I just hope everyone enjoys their dogs.I will sit back and take the flack now.

[luvmylabs]

I hesitate to jump in but I also do not agree with WC. It is a great place for a new comer to get their feet wet, but I do not feel anyone should earn any title on a one shot deal. I feel that a newbie would be encouraged enough to get a ribbon that they would continue on and get that title even if there were 2 or 3 WCs to pass. I have also seen and heard some bench people who put a WC on their dog and then try to pass it off as a retriever when it might have taken 5 tries to get that WC and the dog could just barely make it the 40yds. to the mark. Unsuspecting buyers, not knowing any better, get stuck with a dog that won't retieve. My2cents.

Anne

[just chessies]

I have been reading all the pros. and cons. on this post and it dos.not amount to a hill of beans I do not care what game you play so why stick your finger in some ones else pie, over the years I have played in all the games that are going on some I have past and failed CKC/UKC . I was at the Chessie WC test and a friend ran her dog and got a pass in WC. she was happy and so was I . I saw a lot of first timers running their dogs did they get bit by the bug you bet they did and they were running their own dogs, not handled by pros. People you have to start some where and getting your feet wet at a WC. is a good place to start and before some one jumps all over my bones I do not have a problem with pro. trainers and as stated is it worth driving to a WC. depends on the person I have passed on driving to CKC/HT cause it was to far, entering your dog is the cheap half when you take the price of gas,lodging for two nights and food. There is room for everybody to play in the game they like and you have to get your feet wet somewhere, just my 2cts. worth

[nimkii]

When I decided to look for a lab it was for the purpose of having a hunting companion. I didn't look at a pedigree for titles, I looked for a dog that had the look I wanted. I wanted a lab that was solid and lots of drive (got lots of that). When I visited breeders I looked at their dogs to see if they had what I was looking for, all nice but house pets. The breeder I eventualy chose has some really nice looking dogs but what sold me was the energy and drive they had the day I was there. The breeders sons are avid duck hunters and use one of their dogs. These guys were in the yard shooting skeet and the dogs were eager to go, especially the parents of my dog.

Granted they breed for conformation, but waterfowlers have purchased dogs from them. Now looking at my dog's pedigree, there is 1 WC JH.

I put a SHR on her this summer and I hope to put a HR on her next year. This is fun for me, I don't care if its CKC/AKC HRC/UKC WC/I/X, its just fun, I enjoy it and the DOG loves it.

[krakadawn]

Nimkii

You obviously put some effort into finding a dog with your criteria in mind-glad you ended up with a good one.I do however believe that one must look for titles in a pedigree-I am not talking about the WC/JH type.These are great opportunities for novices to get into the game in some way shape or fashion but not want I would look for.For my purposes I want to see Aftch/Ftch/National titles as solid as I can get.Getting a dog with drive is one thing-getting one that has drive,memory,tractibility,strong marking ability and especially one that wants to be a partner is another thing.I have owned some with drive galore and limited grey matter.
The purpose of my comments are not to stick my finger in some one else's 'pie' but rather to comment on how the breed gets better in a complete sense.
I've always believed it's just as easy to love a good one-good luck and keep training-September is almost here.

[franklauzon]

I certainly agree about looking at titles... I've looked at a lot of Pedigrees in the last couple months, still trying to decide between buying another pup, or breeding my girl...

I've seen some marginally bred dogs, for sale on some reputable boards, and to someone just getting in, they may be in for a surprise...

I think if you are spending about 1000$ on a dog, plus the $$$ on the training, vet fees and what not, you owe it to yourself to increase your odds as much as possible.

I think Mary Howley has it right, when she says that the female plays as much of a role in breeding as the stud... You see too many litters out of brood bitches with no titles, and no titled background, bred to MH dogs. For the most part you don't see this happening with Field Trial dogs, not sure if FT folks are more descriminating, or their dogs simply aren't available enough to breed to whatever is around.

If you have an untitled bitch, but she has all kinds of titles in her pedigree that's a different story. Look at Lean Mac, didn't come out of much, obviously became something...

[krakadawn]

Frank,

Don't forget Lean Mac's father was CNFC CNAFC Waldorf's High Tech.
Jim

[Labber]

The first event I ever entered was a WC. It was also the first event I judged.
Wc's were a great incentive and motivation for my wife who took her dog Jazz to a WCX. Their value at that time was excellent for getting people in.
I think their value to the breed is no longer what it was, because the hunt test program is superior and a more realistic assessment of a dogs hunting ability.
Wc's should be retired in favor of hunt tests. Their is no need now, for both.
The problem with WC's.
1) New people cannot have a perspective on the value of any title.
Bench breeders, selling puppies will not downplay the WC program, compared to HT's and FT's , to hunters looking for good hunting retrievers.
Evidence of this is the # of show breeders entering dogs in WC's as opposed to HT's and FT's, that have no field dogs in their pedigree. This isn't doing the breed any good at all. (and yes the opposite can certainly be said about FT dogs, and I don't care)
2) I don't see the show judges lowering their standards of confirmation in order to put a CH title on field bred dogs. They don't want their standards misrepresented. Makes sense to me.

I am not biased against dogs with confirmation accomplishments. I've seen dogs with both bench conformation and ability. (amongst the other retriever breeds.)
I hate to see a hunter discover the value of training for the dog games, only to discover that he has to make a decision. Get rid of the dog or don't take part. (Been there, I got rid of the dog) Worse yet, try, fail and take your frustrations out on the dog.

Ht's can replace WC's with no repercussion in my opinion.

WC's R.I.P.

There. I've stuck my neck out, against my commitment to stop doing so on the internet.
Let 'em go.

Scott

[Tim]

Now to really stir the pot. I don't agree with some show people passing their dogs off as titled dogs to sell puppies but I also disagree with people that pass their hunt test titles off as FIELD CHAMPIONS as I have seen quite often and then we have UKC tidles that are not reconized by CKC or AKC so are they reconized tidles in a pedagree? I just hope everyone enjoys their dogs.I will sit back and take the flack now.

Hey I like a good :stirpot: , so to add to the "pot"... is a CKC or AKC title worth anything to a hunter looking for a dawg since the dawg can get a JH, SH, or MH and the handler hasn't had the dawg mark the falls "off of the gun" as they do in UKC :boink: . As for the WC... I think it should be left alone, it's just another game for people to play with their dawgs, and some of the people playing that game may not be comfortable with the HT environment.
Tim

[franklauzon]

Hey Jim, sorry my post was misleading... I was referring only to the dam side, so I edited the post a wee little bit

[quackaddict2]

Now to really stir the pot. I don't agree with some show people passing their dogs off as titled dogs to sell puppies but I also disagree with people that pass their hunt test titles off as FIELD CHAMPIONS as I have seen quite often and then we have UKC tidles that are not reconized by CKC or AKC so are they reconized tidles in a pedagree? I just hope everyone enjoys their dogs.I will sit back and take the flack now.


Hey I like a good :stirpot: , so to add to the "pot"... is a CKC or AKC title worth anything to a hunter looking for a dawg since the dawg can get a JH, SH, or MH and the handler hasn't had the dawg mark the falls "off of the gun" as they do in UKC :boink: . As for the WC... I think it should be left alone, it's just another game for people to play with their dawgs, and some of the people playing that game may not be comfortable with the HT environment.
Tim

well if scott can stick his neck out [finally] i guess so can i

i told myself don't touch this one but i guess i got something to say.

first off i found all the posts in this thread to have there merrits[good posting guys and gals] but was a little stung[hurt even:sad1: ]by a few comments

tittles are what they are,nothing more

thats why people come out to this board and simular ones to learn what is what,breeders can only misrepresent a tittles worth only to people who haven't done there homework and when that person shows up somewhere with that dog and hooks up with people in the know well there's another ding in the reputation and soon no one is buying dogs from them

we all know the wc is what it is,it's fun,it gets people hooked and some people don't have the time and resorses and comitment to take it to another level,thats ok,they are still having a blast with the're animals.

now [lets see if i can be ginger here]i think we all can agree if someone has attained a MH with the ckc or a HRCH with the ukc that that person had put a lot of time and effort into that animal and without a doubt that animal has what a sportsman is looking for in a hunting companion.this observation being made after seeing the work these dogs do to get a pass[around here anyways].i have an HRCH tittle on my dog and in my journey getting to it i know that means something.

lets keep the my [kung fu is better than your kung fu ]chit out of it

[3 black dogs]

good post Al I almost answered that one but you handled it better than I would have.

Chris

[Tim]

Just to keep this all in good fun... since Lean Mac is considered one of the all time best, if not the best, I looked at his pedigree, momma was a WCX, and a few more were back there
Just Sayin'

Tim

2XNAFC-2XCNAFC-FC EBONSTAR LEAN MAC 98,99 CNAFC (BLK-BY)

'87 CNFC,'92 CNAFC WALDORF'S HIGH TECH (YLW)

EBONACEAE PRINCESS WCX*** (BLK)

[franklauzon]

I'm happy that everyone has kept this civil while having their concerns and opinions heard...

Now with regards to Princess WCX***, you gotta keep in mind that the *** means a whole pile too though. Myself I train with a golden that is ***, and it's friggin rediculous what the dog can do. I have no doubt this dog would pass the MH tests that I have seen.

Could princess have attained more titles in the HT environment, most likely... Why didn't she, well that would have to be asked to the owner.

I'm just playing the devils advocate, cuz it's keeping the topic going.

[Tim]

I'm happy that everyone has kept this civil while having their concerns and opinions heard...

Now with regards to Princess WCX***, you gotta keep in mind that the *** means a whole pile too though. Myself I train with a golden that is ***, and it's friggin rediculous what the dog can do. I have no doubt this dog would pass the MH tests that I have seen.

Could princess have attained more titles in the HT environment, most likely... Why didn't she, well that would have to be asked to the owner.

I'm just playing the devils advocate, cuz it's keeping the topic going.

I think I read somewhere that Princess was the test dog at one of the Nationals.

[luvmylabs]

The *** in Princess is for Qualified All Age. This was put there before there was ever a QFTR title for Qual dogs. It is still that way in the States. I would say that Maxx had a pretty good pedigree.

I can understand some of the comments made in favour of WC. It is a good place for new people to get their feet wet and maybe get the bug. That is always good for the sport. As far a new buyers doing their homework, it is really sad that many do not. Having bred a few litters, I can tell you that there are a lot of uneducated buyers out there waiting to be fooled. Have only had a few ask about health clearances. Then it is only hips & eyes. Have not had one buyer ever ask to see the health papers on my dogs. I could have told them anything and they would have believed it. Only ever had one who asked about their working titles. Most assume if they have a title that means they can hunt. It is the same with anything else that is fairly easy to get. There are a few that abuse this title and ruin it for everyone else that really wants to work with their dog. The first test we ever ran was a HRC Started test. That was before they made it into a title. We didn't care. We were just thrilled to get that ribbon.

Anne

[Misty Marsh]

The question was "if WC events have field dog merit", not if they are a good place to get your feet wet for first timers etc., which I feel they do. I personally have been "soured" by the work that I have seen/judged in WC events, think that they are not a good barometer for field dog merit at all, maybe at the WCX level, but at 1 pass and a 50-75 yard distance in my opinion does not give a dog true field credability. Go get 4 CKC senior hunter passes/title, then your talking "field merit" in my opinion.

[franklauzon]

Good catch trent... I guess we have been off the topic a little in that aspect.
I'm just happy that everyone is talking, since it had been quiet!

I think *** are underrated, and deffinitely believe they should have a title of some sort for it.

[Labber]

Misty Marsh........:spoton:

[North of 7]

To carry my thoughts a little farther I just think there are too many different titles in the retriever games and if it is watered down the titles given don't mean as much. I hope everyone would concede that the purpose of these events are to better the breeds not to just win ribbons. I believe that titles should be given to the dogs that excel past the average dog and show that they are very talented animals because these are the dogs that should be bred to if we do want to better the breeds.
Just for a little humour we could call the Toronto Maple Leafs the Toronto Champions

[quackaddict2]

i agree with misty marsh,north of 7,labber[as isaid some good posting]

there is no way i would consider a wc a good measure of a dogs ability in the field so the wc in that regard having merit my opinion is no and that was the question.

so now let me ask does a wc have merit.

in my opinion yes,they get people involved.they get people out and enjoying there animals,they spark interest.we all don't eat sleep and chit retriever training but we all love our dogs and enjoy any kind of interaction with them.i am happy for that person because everyone of us hard core trainers can think back and know how great we felt when we achieved our first little accomplishment with our first dog.no one was gonna tell us it wasn't something.the hook was set,we saw the big dogs running and before we knew it thats where we wan't to go and we worked hard to get there

now scott you know your wife [hi liz] got hooked when getting her first ribbon at a wc.well folks liz later went on to run jazz at the toronto sportsman show[when it was still run in the arena] and won it:nice work: no small feat by anybodies standard.now liz doesnt train today but you as a full blown dog training nut knows just how understanding and tolerant liz must be when it comes to scotts training schedule.now if that does give a wc merit right up the hoop or what.

i wonder how many bumpers and dokens have been sold and other supplies because after accomplishing that wc and seen the big dogs work we needed it to go to the next level

to me the idea that breeders can misrepresnt there dogs doesn't really hold water either. no serious hunter or dog trainer is not going to go out there looking for a dog without doing there homework.anyone that tries passing off sub standard dogs as great field dogs because they have a wc well they won't last long in our circles and will be back to selling nice pets to regular homes at bargain prices

lets all encourage people to participate at any level ITS GOOD FOR THE GAME

[waterfowler65]

Ok, I havent said anything on this yet!!!!! I do NOT think WC's are pointless. I think they have their place in the dog game. I dont look at them as being a credible source by themselves of judging wether or not a dog is field proven, I think pedigree, field trial titles , and hunt test titles, also how and who trained the dog are important. I do however think that they are great for the inexperienced handler, it's a great place to cut your teeth, and get accustumed to the buterflies in your belly just before you run. It's a great place to socialize your dog, and also for a young dog to learn what a trial is. Most of us have heard this line, BUT HE WAS SO GOOD IN TRAINING THE OTHER DAY. LOL.....And as for how far I would drive for to run in one well let me ask ALL OF YOU hardcore dog trainers!!!!! How far have you driven last winter for a training day or picnic trial????? Because in reality thats how I approach a WC trial as a great training day for the dog and I and to smile and have fun with no preasure. Oh and great BBQs when MVRTC hold them!!!!!!!!

[Retrievers ONLINE]

LOOONG post –beware!

OK So you all finally got me to bite on this topic. Do WC’s have any merit? In response, I will pose the question “Do ANY titles have merit?”

I will answer that question by saying “It depends WHO you are, WHAT your goals and standards are and HOW you use the title.

Some folks have described how the WC has merit to them. Others have described how their aspirations to a SH or MH have much more merit making the WC of dubious value. I suspect, we mostly all agree that for labs, chessies and goldens, WC’s are insufficient to be used as a criteria to improve the breeding of “field” dogs. However, they may have merit to improve participation in various field “games.”

In contrast, what does a FC or FTCH mean? Does it mean that dog is a better hunting dog than a *** or a MH. Not necessarily! However it does mean in 90% of cases that the dog has demonstrated the traits required of a very good retriever to a greater degree. BUT, perhaps, he needs some custom work in a duck hunting situation to be a total partner. In comparison, the UKC dog is probably tested in more realistic hunting scenarios than any other venues but often the retrieves are relatively simple compared to a FC. Somewhat ditto for the MH who may not be tested much beyond 125 yards. Does this mean a MH and a HRCH has more or less merit than a QFTR or a FTCH?

It depends WHO you are and WAHT your goals are. As a duck hunter I am not interested in a dog who can ONLY get the meat. As a Field Trialer, the judges of my dogs are not interested in the dog who can ONLY get the meat!. If all the birds are just routine retrieves I can probably get them myself!. It’s actually the extraordinary retrieves that I want a dog for. The cripple that sails in at 200-300 yards into the cattails. . .the diver that swims and dies at 300 yards out on lake Ontario. . .the cripples that needs to be selected from 3 dead birds. It seems the field trial judges are also looking for the best dogs!

I am personally not satisfied with a dog that can’t retrieve beyond 125 yards. I am personally not satisfied with a dog that can not handle with great precision and finesse at a distance or with great distraction. I am not satisfied with a dog that breaks or is unruly or is noisy. AND I love the partnership of a great dog that often sleeps on the bed or at least in the room at the duck camp.

I would not be happy with lots of titled dogs. That doesn’t mean they have no merit to others. Some days when I have hunted or competed with my National Champions I am no happier with them than when I have hunted with my younger untitled dogs. It’s all about the standards and the expectations I have for that dog on that day. Generally speaking, most hunters have low expectations and most trainers are too enamored with moderate accomplishments. These dogs are capable of SO much when properly trained. I think it is our responsibility to improve our training, raise our standards and improve the breed.

Titles do play a real role in assessing breedings. I personally play little attention to titles except MH, FTCH, FC, AFTCH, AFC and National titles when trying to assess a pedigree. I do however pay much attention to” insider” or personal experience information on health, personality, physical traits of dogs. Far too many breeders know nothing about the sire or dam except their titles and points. They religiously seek these dogs when they have serious compatibility problems with the dam.. When the dogs carry a serious genetic defect, a physical limitation or a mental problem, those titles have little merit.

WC’s? Don’t knock them. . . perhaps the dog barely deserves to be called a retriever but perhaps the dog deserves a better owner. However, they do demonstrate minimal abilities.

FC’s, FTCH’s ? I have no idea how many on this forum have had FC’s or have hunted over many of them. But until you’ve hunted with two or three of them, don’t think other titles are the ultimate merit! Those who critique the unrealistic field trials of today have probably never hunted over a FC who is also a hunting dog.

In between these extremes, passionately seek your own standard but aim high!.

I’ll close by saying I’d be surprised if your standard doesn’t change the better trainer you become and the better your dog becomes!

Cheers all

Dennis

PS. Getting itchy after 3 long days at the duck camp getting ready for the season. Lots of ducks, wild rice and expectations. But first, we have a trial and a National to get out of the way.

[Drew Good]

WOW well said Dennis :spoton: , that definately should give everyone something to think about....

Drew

[North of 7]

:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[quackaddict2]

blown away dennis:nice work:

well put and points all well made

i did notice nobody was insane enough to critique the FC's and FTCH in a negative light [we all know FT offers the ultimate title.it is the pinacle of the sport] and anyone who would suggest that a FC's,FTCH,AFTCH or AFC would not necessarily make a fine hunting companion would have to be off their rocker

[just chessies]

Retrievers On Line ( Dennis ) Thank you, you put it a lot better than I could have. A away back when :bigrin I was in my 20,s the only game in town was FTS. I belong to Lab. Owners Club when it was just starting up. I was very wet behind the ears and thats how I got started training Labs. and now with the WC/HT games I see a lot of people who get a chance to run their dogs and its a learning process for them and their dogs. These are ordinary people not breeders advertising show dogs with titles. The last WC. tests there were a lot of happy first timers that got ribbons and that gets people wanting to go a little farther with their dogs it opens another door to training at higher stakes could be HTS or FT. depends how hard you get bit by the bug just my 2cts. worth

[quackaddict2]

blown away dennis:nice work:

well put and points all well made

i did notice nobody was insane enough to critique the FC's and FTCH in a negative light [we all know FT offers the ultimate title.it is the pinacle of the sport] and anyone who would suggest that a FC's,FTCH,AFTCH or AFC would not necessarily make a fine hunting companion would have to be off their rocker

one last note

i really should have thought my last responce out a little better,lol

i certainly don't mean to say anyone is insane or off their rocker,lol lol

thats just my way of expressing myself,lol,one of these days i will learn to express myself in a more eloquent manner lol lol lol

we all know we are all entittled ot our opinions and our right to voice them:spoton:

[franklauzon]

Good point Dennis, and truly well spoken.