Downtown Dusty Brown

[Labber]

Looking for input and opinions from FT'ers on this dogs pups. I would think the oldest of his pups are around 3. I know there are a few on the Ont/ Quebec circuit.


Have you trained with or Judged his pups and noticed anything good or bad?
Aware of any health or character issues?

I know I've judged at least one or two, and I think I may have awarded a Junior win to one. I need to go to my records to refresh my memory.

Any input would be appreciated.
PM me if you prefer.

Scott

[Kevin Hannah]

I have trained with and seen a Dusty pup in Vermont. I think she is probably about a year and a half or so running hunt tests. She got her HR title this summer and has been totally trained by an amateur who is faily new to the dog games as well. She is a real nice dog, marks very well and has tons of go but is not out of control crazy. Don't know of any health issues they have had.

Thats all I got.

Kevin

[Lpgar]

Scott

Dusty is producing some very nice animals when bread to a quality bitch.

Donna Woolham now owns that Downtown's Slappin Around (Dykes) Dog that is with Dan. Very very nice animal. 3pt Jr average....Qual Win...and Open Jam this year in very limited Trialing.

I have seen a couple of other that Have come from Shawn Grady's Gritts. Very nice animal....the Bitch pup was done basics and with Dan before it was 5 months. It was amazing....basically tried to take control of the Truck by 6 months.

I had a deposit in on a Dusty Breeding from a Creek Robber bitch....2 breeding no Puppys...So I have Karma now

Call Me...or PM if Ya want

Gar

[AD18]

I investigated him when I was looking for my pup and heard he was a pretty good dog working wise. The biggest issue most had was his size. He is supposedly a VERY small dog for a male lab. Not sure if that is an issue with you or not.

[franklauzon]

I majored in math... Recently I've been working on a formula where you can figure out if a dog (of any breed) is any good using a few simple imputs.

b+c=d

Where B is the CHROMAGENE
and Where C is the BREED
Combined this gives D, which is the expected performance of the animal.

Yellow + Labrador = Junk, therefore using powers of deduction I would stay away...

All that for a simple color jab... couldn't pass up a perectly good opporunity... I really gotta stop or I'll never be able to get a yellow one... lol

According to http://www.downtowndustybrown.com/Superstars.html, Dan Devos is training Downtowns Smack'em Around, not sure how updated the page is, but might be worth contacting Dan for his opinion.

[rocko]

Nice website........

[Baby Duck]

Scott

I have seen several and all that I have seen are small and not what I would call blocky. They even the males seem to be under 70# and very pointy

Mike

[Kevin Hannah]

The female I have seen is a little on the small side as well.

[captainjack]

Hey Scott,

Just checking the site before we head to the National. I have been researching studs to breed to Arwen. Dusty Brown is now on the top of the list. I have checked with a number of Americans and he no doubt is an awesome animal as he is proving on the US circuit. But reports on his pups is also faviourable.
Dan DeVos has 3 on his truck and I have watched his Smack Around dog for 2 years from puppy to open and he is as tractable and talented as you could want. Dan has a couple of clients who want Dusty Brown and Arwen pups and he thinks that I am crazy to go anywhere else for a yellow stud.
He finds them very intelligent, with tons of desire and easy to train.
No doubt you could get as many variable opinions on this topic as there are Dusty pups.
I researched Soupy lines before breeding to him with my very successful Soupy / Arwen breeding and reports are that his lines are one of the healthiest. That was one of the main reasons he got so many breedings to top US FC bitches as well as his success with the Soupy/Breeze breeding that produced Dusty.
You now know as much as I do and that may not be a h... of alot.

Peter

[Misty Marsh]

The Soupy X Breeze litters have always had the mothers traits which have included FC calibre marking, blind running, desire etc.., but with that you will get her look also which is smaller in size, slender, and not exactly "classic" looking unless bred to a real classic looking Dam/Sire. She seems to produce healthy dog's as far as hips/elbows, and eyes go, but she does carry EIC which came from Sue Taylors mouth, not just me speculating so do your homework on the Breeze offsring and potiential breeding cantidates as to avoid this disease. All the offspring I've seen out of Breeze, be it when bred to "Soupy" or Creek Robber produced some awsome running dogs although the creek robber litter produced EIC effected dogs, so guess who else carry's EIC?

[Kevin Hannah]

The Soupy X Breeze litters have always had the mothers traits which have included FC calibre marking, blind running, desire etc.., but with that you will get her look also which is smaller in size, slender, and not exactly "classic" looking unless bred to a real classic looking Dam/Sire. She seems to produce healthy dog's as far as hips/elbows, and eyes go, but she does carry EIC which came from Sue Taylors mouth, not just me speculating so do your homework on the Breeze offsring and potiential breeding cantidates as to avoid this disease. All the offspring I've seen out of Breeze, be it when bred to "Soupy" or Creek Robber produced some awsome running dogs although the creek robber litter produced EIC effected dogs, so guess who else carry's EIC?

Can you post the link to the web site about EIC studies.

[Misty Marsh]

I honestly do not have a link to a EIC study website! I got my dog's tested as a part of the U of M EIC study last week by Sue Taylor who is heavily involved. I spoke with Sue about EIC at length at a trial earlier this year and se told me that Breeze is a carrier as is Creek Robber. She knows this as one of her dogs "Blue" 2005 Canadian high point junior FT dog has EIC and he's out of the Breeze X Creek Robber litter, so with it taking 2 carrier to produce effected dog's he's also a carrier. She had also told me that Lean Mack is a known carrier, so imagine the number of dog's that carry the EIC gene? When I get more info on the EIC study I will pass it on as I feel information is the key to this problem and a test will better help breeders make informed decisions on avoiding effected EIC pups.

[Kevin Hannah]

So you are saying they have pinned down the inheritance on EIC, last things I read was that while they were close to finding the genetic marker for EIC they had yet to determine the inheritance of it. Untill they complete that could EIC just be a genetic enomily which they can identify with no solid evidence showing how it is passed on. Personelly I am not sure yet if it will break down as simply as CNM has with its tests and mode of inheritance.

JMHO

Kevin

[Labber]

Having just gotten rid of a promising young pup for what I believe was an EIC episode during Double T, I'm a little gun shy about it.
It makes me sick to think that I could buy a pup this month and two or three years from now, when he's looking like an all age candidate, find out he's a carrier. Goodbye breedability (rightly or wrongly)
I'm hearing this & that, all from sincere opinions, and I don't know which way to turn.

Here is Dr Taylors EIC info.
http://www.thelabradorclub.com/library/eicstudy.html

Also go to youtube and type in EIC and you will see a severely affected dog.

Captain Jack (ARRR Billy) I PM'd you regarding your Downeast trip.

[Drew Good]

Hey Scott, I did a quick search on youtube but came up empty handed, if you run across a link to that post it so I can take a look if you don't mind.

Is there any documented proof that Auggie has thrown EIC affected pups? The reason I ask is he is one of the sire's that I am looking at for my next pup.

Drew

[Kevin Hannah]

I could be wrong drew and this is JMO which could be changed with any documented proof but I don't know if they have link its inheritance yet. SO while any given sire may have throuwn an affected puppy it doesn't nessasarily mean he would throw another. I don't know if they have eliminated the fact that it may be a genetic enomaly or not. The example I have read about is something like Down Syndrome is genetic but it is not an inherited condition, it is a genetic anomaly. So what they may find is that while they can locate the genetic marker for EIC they may find while trying to track the inheratence of EIC that it is just an anomaly.

I also think it is jumping the gun a bit to announce that any given stud dog is a carrier before they track the mode of inheritance. I could name a high profile stud dog for this area that could be considered a carrier based on the fact that I think one of my older dogs suffers from EIC. Untill they track the inheritance it could just be a genetic anomaly. Remember also that the symptoms of EIC resemble tons of other health issues as well.

Again this is just my opinion of information I have read on various web sites so take it for what it is, I would be gladely corrected. If anyone has any other documentation or links to any of the studies I would be very interested in seeing thesites.

Kevin

[Misty Marsh]

I personally think that in the next few months we will find out that EIC is passed autosomal resessively, thus two carriers needed to produce an effected pup. Is it just a random genetic abnormality, I seriously doubt it, and if it was I seriously doubt it would have gone this far in the research and large scale perfromance based retriever study. I personally think that the U of M is alot closer to conclusive results than we know especially considering that the info posted by labber is over 4 years old.

[Kevin Hannah]

I personally think that in the next few months we will find out that EIC is passed autosomal resessively, thus two carriers needed to produce an effected pup. Is it just a random genetic abnormality, I seriously doubt it, and if it was I seriously doubt it would have gone this far in the research and large scale perfromance based retriever study. I personally think that the U of M is alot closer to conclusive results than we know especially considering that the info posted by labber is over 4 years old.

I certainly hope your right.

Kevin

[Labber]

Drew,
I don't think there is documented proof yet on any dog throwing EIC.
This is the frustrating thing. We know it exists and that's it.
Kevin's points are very well made, and I wouldn't want to paint any sire or lineage with this brush.
I'm going to geuss that we will find out that just about every FT line will carry the gene somewhere when the testing process finally happens. I think it will be 10 or 15 yrs before we can confidently buy a pup with almost no risk of carriers, if it goes the same way the CNM testing has.
But in the mean time we'll do the best we can.
Bottom line is as someone on RTF said, I'm in it to compete.

I'm no expert on lineage traits, but I'm paying a little more attention these days.

Creek Robber is an amazing dog for alot of reasons, but there are quite a few other options out there as well.

Best to talk to some of the people here who have bred their bitches and studied traits more than I.

Scott,
Who is giving another wishy washy answer to a good question.

[Retrievers ONLINE]

[QUOTE=Labber;6292]I don't think there is documented proof yet on any dog throwing EIC.This is the frustrating thing. We know it exists and that's it.


............... I think it will be 10 or 15 yrs before we can confidently buy a pup with almost no risk of carriers, if it goes the same way the CNM testing has.


Creek Robber is an amazing dog for alot of reasons, but there are quite a few other options out there as well.QUOTE]

We know a lot more than it just exists. There is definitely a DNA marker identified. Results can not be "publicly" stated until the scientific paper on this is peer-reviewed and published. It is likely that will take the rest of this year. There is a human disease equivalent. The mode of inheritance (autosomal recessive) seems to also be pinned down but that too wll need to be verified with additional pedigree analysis.

Once the test is commercially available, there will be NO 10-15 year wait. You will be able to buy a pup from cleared parents with 100% certainty just as you can for CNM.

Speaking of "other" studs, from what we now have seen with ACL ruptures, I would be loath to buy from a sire that had both cruciates torn! Stifle angles and grooves are correlated with cruciate injuries although joint accidents happen for many reasons..

[Misty Marsh]

I was just going to make the same comment reagrding "hot shot" studs with 1or 2 blown crusciates. And as we both know CCL injury can be a random sports injury (traumatic) when the angles are x-rayed/calcualted and within the 21 degree or less angle range, but with tibial plateau angles being a genetically passed trait I personally find it crazy that people will still breed like crazy to certain studs just because he runs well (kind of a oxymoron if you ask me):boink: .

[Drew Good]

Good points guys,

I know that most of it right now is just speculation and like you say until a test for it is available you are just taking your chances.



Once the test is commercially available, there will be NO 10-15 year wait. You will be able to buy a pup from cleared parents with 100% certainty just as you can for CNM.


The problem with this is getting everyone that breed's their dogs to have the test done. Even now people are not testing for CNM, if they are not willing to have this test done then they will not have an EIC done either. I know I will never buy a pup from parents that are not tested or at least proven negitive by parentage

Drew

[TK'S]

When I was at Mike Lardy's last month there was a talk about CNM and that Lean Mac has not been tested so half of the breed has him so what are they testing for? If they know what they are talking about the whole breed has a problem.Terry

[luvmylabs]

A little hard to test him, when the CNM test came out after he was dead. Enough of his progeny have tested clear that it is doubtful he is a carrier. Especially when he was bred to known carriers and the pups came out ok.

Anne

[Retrievers ONLINE]

In order to provide some assurance to those doubters, I can advise you that I will be distributing test kits (50) for EIC to interested owners at the upcoming National Open. This is on behalf of Dr. Sue Taylor and the research group at U. Minn. Cooperators will get their dogs tested and the "private" results will show-affected, carrier or free. Please note this test is not yet commercially available.

In order to clarify, EIC is like CNM in inheritance. Therefore you could have a pup out of a carrier that is also a carrier OR may be completely free depending on the status of the bitch. So be careful condemning all progeny of Stud Mr. X.

Cheers


Dennis

[3 black dogs]

Dennis we won't be able to get up to the national if all the test kits for EIC aren't grabed up we would like one or two if possible. I will PM you with our mailing address and I will forward you payment for shipping.

Thanks

Chris Bayles
B-Line Labs

[Labber]

I want to make it clear that just because this thread is title "Downtown Dusty Brown" and has evolved into an EIC discussion, has nothing to do with Dusty throwing anything bad. I have no info to that effect.

[TK'S]

Anne It is not hard if they have straws still arouhd . Terry

[franklauzon]

Maybe the title of the thread should be changed to protect the innocent lol

[captainjack]

There is an interesting thread in retrieverforum.net about yellow / yellow factored stud dogs and Dusty comes up quite often. You may be interested in reading. I would expect that if he was throwing health problems that they would have surfaced by now. But perhaps those people writing are not any more knowledgeable than us. But as I said before - you now know as much as I do and that is not a h... of alot.

[Retrievers ONLINE]

Dennis we won't be able to get up to the national if all the test kits for EIC aren't grabed up we would like one or two if possible. I will PM you with our mailing address and I will forward you payment for shipping.

Thanks

Chris Bayles
B-Line Labs

Let me nip this one in the bud. I expect all the kits will go at the National as Dr. Taylor intended. I don't want to come home and mail 20 of them!!! If somebody has a field trial bred lab and wants a kit, arrange for that from someone who is going to National and they can then get directly from me.

Thanks and hope you understand.

Dennis

[Debbie C]

will make this post in another spot..

[3 black dogs]

Not a problem thanks Denis