Obedience Issue

[graftongal]

I am looking for suggestions or tips for an issue that I've been having with my dog. :2:

In general he has great obedience. He sits when told, comes when called :dog: , walks well on a leash, etc. However... whenever he knows that we are going to train he gets so worked up that he starts to pull on the leash to the point where he is choking himself. I will tell him heel, which he'll do for a couple of seconds and then it is right back to pulling. It is almost as though he becomes so focused that he forgets his manners. For example, sometimes if he does a sloppy heel at the line I will make him do it again. I literally have to snap my fingers in front of his face to snap him out of focus so that he listens to me. He is zoned right in to the field waiting for the mark to be thrown. This problem is worse if there is water involved. I'm glad his drive is so strong, but I need help!

I thought perhaps that this was something that would pass as he got older, but he will be a year old in a week and it's still happening. I especially want to stop this now, he is now 77 lbs and I can't imagine how bad it is going to be once he completely fills out. Not only that, but I just want his obedience to be great all around.

He has been collar conditioned, but I only use the collar for corrections when he is in the field. Is it possible to use the collar for obedience issues, or is using a pinch collar an option? :confused:

[AD18]

If he has been collar conditioned DEFINETLY use it for a correction, that's what it is for. My dogs have them on whenever they are in the field, just walks or training. Pinch collar may work, but I don't like using them in field work because they can get caught on cover real easy, obviously no water. Also look into a healing stick. They are very usefull. It is a very common problem with high powered dogs and now is the time to fix it, although it may be a struggle throughout his "career". Demand the obediance, enforce with collar/lead/healing stick. If he still continues to act up put him back in the truck and no retrieve at all.

[tollerlover]

Start using the collar for obedience in the yard and at home, on a level just high enough to get his attention - you don't need to make him jump and yelp. Then do some obedience in a slightly more distracting place - in town, at a kids soccer game, shopping store parking lots. Do lots of heeling and changes of direction. The minute he's not focused on you, tap the collar as you turn and walk the other way. Short working sessions of 5 - 10 minutes. Work up to the most distracting place - the field. You will need to adjust the level of stim depending on the distraction. The more you work with the collar, the more comfortable you will get - soon you'll be playing it like a violin!
For this kind of work and at his age, you don't need to consider the collar only as a "correction" - use it as a communications tool.
Will you be at training this Sunday? I can help you with this. Or, if you get this message today, I'll be in Cobourg tonight doing a judging seminar. I can get there a bit early if you want to meet me. I'll be at work today
705-731-0298
Liz

[graftongal]

Liz, I sent you a PM!

[Tollergirl]

Basically your pup needs some self control! He's still quite young, so yes now is definitely the time to instill that in him! It can help if you can work one on one with someone as it may take you a bit longer to get to the line, but have someone standing out in the open, bumpers in hand. Make sure your collar or line is as high up behind your dog's ear as you can get it. You'll have much more control with it up high. Tell him heel (we're assuming he understands the command) and start to walk to line. Keep a lot of slack in the lead (you may want to put it around your waist). As he starts to charge ahead, you quickly step back and turn the other direction. His momentum and you turning, when timed properly, will give him a good pop. Make it a game, say something like "whoops gotchya!" and keep it happy. Start to walk again. Everytime he gets ahead, change direction, don't warn him, and walk back a few steps before turning back towards the line. As he's catching on you'll see him starting to anticipate you changing directions on him, and he'll pay more attention to where you are. He doesn't need to be looking at you, dog's use their peripheral vision far more than we do. Every once in a while sike him out, hesitate slightly and see if he pops back towards you. Gradually he'll realize he gets a lot further a lot faster if he heels and doesn't pull.

When he arrives at the line on a slack lead, then, and only then, does he get to retrieve. You have to consider what the dog wants, and that is his reward. In this case he wants to retrieve. So if he drags you to line then gets to retrieve he's just getting rewarded for the bad behaviour. Also if you just pop and tell him heel but you are still walking forward, he's still reaching his ultimate goal despite the pulling. The correction means nothing at that point, hence the change in direction. The correction will mean a lot more if it's taking him away from his goal.

You could do this with a pinch collar in the beginning, just make sure you don't run him with it on. Also if he is properly collar conditioned you can gradually replace the lease pop with a collar correction at whatever level is going to get his attention in this situation. The collar is FOR obedience and is used for obedience during the conditioning stages.

You may also try the indirect pressure with the collar, when he gets ahead of you, sit-nick-sit (beside you), then repeat "heel".

Just going to take time and practice, but most importantly be *consistent*. Don't work on it one day then the next day you're in a rush and say "to hell with it" and let him drag you to the line. You'll reset all the work you've done each time he gets away with it.

Good luck and keep us posted on how he's doing!

[luvmylabs]

Some good advice here. another thing I would try is to teach him to back up. If he starts to surge ahead, stop, tell him to heel, and once he is at heel, take a step back and reheel, repeat. Once he has settled down, start forward again. If he surges, repeat the exercise. Most dogs have a "tell" as to when they have settled down. Watch him closely and try to find what he is doing when he gets really excited. Some dogs will pant excessively, others will snap thier teeth, others will lift one foot off the ground. Every dog is different. If you watch close, you can tell when he is really cranked up. At that point stop and do the heel, back up drill. When he is calmed down you can move forward again. Sometimes you only get one or two steps before he will crank up again, but if you do this consistantly, you can eventually get him to the line and keep him somewhat calmer. If he does not heel or back up when commanded, that is when you use the collar to reinforce the command. You can also use a heeling stick. Whatever works with your dog depending on how excited he gets. I usually try not to use the collar unless necessary, because you won't have a collar at a test, but it may be necessary until you start to get him somewhat under control.

Anne

[Greg]

These are great suggestions! I just printed off the thread LOL!

[waterfowler65]

I had the very same problem with my dog Gunner, and it seemed the older he got the worse it became especially while trialing with no e-collar.

Be very careful when using collar corections around the line, It can cause poping.

Lets start at the begining, you said that when he is on lead he wont heel properly or sit and loses focus, this is very easy to take care of, first of all use a pinch collar and go threw the sit and heel while on lead, you also need to this when you know he will give you a problem.(excited) This should only take a few sesions "IF" he is solid on his obedience.

After a couple of days you see that you have him under the desired control, take him off lead and use the e-collar, ( remember you need to have him excited or "high" for these lesons to stick in his brain) walk with him at heel, when he surges forward you say to him sit and nick him at the same time, make sure he sits and stays while you walk up to him, then tell him to heel again, do this until he stops surging forward it shouldnt take to long before he gets the picture "IF" he is solid on his obedience.

If you plan on doing field trials or hunt tests you have to take care of this right away, because once you are in a holding blind and he hears all the gun shots he will go nuts on you and you wont have any controle what so ever, if you think he is bad when he knows he is going training just wait and see what happens when he is at a test....Ask anyone one here with a "high" dog I'm sure they will agree.

Later.....Marc.....

[Misty Marsh]

Obediance is obediance, not one set of rules for in the field and another for everything else. Use the collar, that's what it's there for:amen: , excitement is no excuse for poor behaviour.

[luvmylabs]

I can't agree 100% with the collar use going to the line. If a heeling stick or choker or prong collar doesn't work, then I would use the collar. Otherwise I prefer to use other methods. It is far easier to fix a surging dog than it is to fix a test wise dog. If the dog gets a collar correction everytime he goes to the line in a training situation, then does not get it in a test situation, it doesn't take long before the dog realises he can get away with it at a test. You might get away with it for a few tests.You might not make it through a weekend or even a day before he gets the message he can do whatever he wants at a test. And they KNOW when they are at a test.

Anne

[rocko]

I can't agree 100% with the collar use going to the line. If a heeling stick or choker or prong collar doesn't work, then I would use the collar. Otherwise I prefer to use other methods. It is far easier to fix a surging dog than it is to fix a test wise dog. If the dog gets a collar correction everytime he goes to the line in a training situation, then does not get it in a test situation, it doesn't take long before the dog realises he can get away with it at a test. You might get away with it for a few tests.You might not make it through a weekend or even a day before he gets the message he can do whatever he wants at a test. And they KNOW when they are at a test.

Anne

Sorry, I am new at this....but what makes it different if you give your dog a wack with a heeling stick or a Nick with the collar at training? Isn't the dog going to realize that your not carrying a heeling stick at a test?

[waterfowler65]

Obediance is obediance, not one set of rules for in the field and another for everything else. Use the collar, that's what it's there for:amen: , excitement is no excuse for poor behaviour.

Thats correct obediance is obediance, and with out it you cant walk your dog at a park have an effective waterfowl hunt run trials or tests.
Excitement is no excuse for poor behaviour but it is necessary to get an effective correction in. So Amen, Hallaluya and Praise the Lord to that.

Marc....

[waterfowler65]

Sorry, I am new at this....but what makes it different if you give your dog a wack with a heeling stick or a Nick with the collar at training? Isn't the dog going to realize that your not carrying a heeling stick at a test?

The reason for using corrections (stick or collar or whatever else you choose) is so that the dog doesnt repeat poor behaviour, wether it be obediance or lack of effort. So your goal is for your dog to maintain a standard in training and where corrections are slim to none.(in a perfect world)
So when your dog is performing consistantly at the standard that has been set(swim by, de cheat, handling....bla bla bla...) then you would run your dog in a trial or test.

Anyone else????

Marc....

[tollerlover]

I think what Rocko means is that whatever you are using to make the correction in training - choke collar, pinch collar, heeling stick, e-collar - you won't have that tool at the line at a test. So, how can you say the dog is test-wise about e-collars? I'm sure he notices whether or not you are carrying a heeling stick, or the fact that he isn't wearing any kind of collar at all. As someone else said, the key is enforcing consistent behaviour for some period of time until it becomes automatic. With whatever tool you wish to use, enforce proper heeling and line manners until the dog isn't thinking about the wrong behaviours anymore. As an example, I collar conditioned my latest Toller puppy at about 5 months of age. She wears the collar any time she is off-leash - training, walking in the woods, running in the yard, etc. She has the most reliable recall of any dog I have trained - why? Because I have been able to enforce it consistently. Even when she occasionally doesn't have the collar on, her recall is great - she doesn't even think about not coming, she just automatically does it.

[Greg]

I always thought people were exaggerating about how much higher your dog gets at a trial or hunt test. THEY WERE NOT! LOL!

I've never seen my Suzy so hyper as she was at our first hunt test the other week. I think she had a sore throat after walking up to the line 8 times in 2 days. I could not let her have more than a 1' lead or she would have been all over the place.


If you can get a hold of this now.. you will have much less frusturation in the future. It sounds like Dax is a much higher dog than his sister hehehe..

[luvmylabs]

Sorry, I am new at this....but what makes it different if you give your dog a wack with a heeling stick or a Nick with the collar at training? Isn't the dog going to realize that your not carrying a heeling stick at a test?

Rocko,

IF,being a new trainer, you can be patient and not run your dog until he is rock solid in exciting situations every time, it may not matter whether you use the collar for heeling corrections. Unfortunately, if you are like the majority of new trainers, you want to get out there and test your dog and get those ribbons. That's part of the fun of why we train right??? If you are a little impatient to get out to those tests, that is why I don't like to use a collar going to the line unless all other things fail. Say that everytime you take your dog to a group training day, your dog surges and generally bounces around, you nick him with the collar. After a while, you will find that as soon as the dog gets that nick, he behaves great for the rest of the day. You think great, he's ready to go to a test. You get to a test and your dog goes nuts, which is normal for a young dog going to a test. There is no way you can give him that nick that he needs to behave. He thinks, no nick, great!!! Next thing you know he starts to creep or play with the bird or whining ect. When no correction comes it just escalates. Next time you go out to a training day, wham, he gets his correction for being an idiot. He's back to behaving again. Next test, no nick, he's thinking, wow I can do what I want again. On the other hand, if you use a heeling stick or a choke chain, you can usually simulate some of that at a test. You can use the things you have at hand. What about the end of your leash? What about a hand on his butt? He knows the collar isn't on, but he doesn't know if you have something else he can get whacked with. You just have to be discreet about doing it.

Anne

[franklauzon]

lol BEST COMMENT EVER!!

"You just have to be discreet about doing it."

Is that what the baseball hat is for! Thanks for making my day Anne